Xalo
Neophyte
Posts: 23
|
Help?
Oct 23, 2011 23:12:48 GMT
Post by Xalo on Oct 23, 2011 23:12:48 GMT
I have two builds I want you to look at and tell me which you would rather have in a party and possible ways to make either of them better. The first will be a half-satyr disarming weapon master. The other is a ranger CC humanoid/undead shifter tank. Both are edits from previous builds so let me know!
------------------------------------- ------The Weaponmaster------ -------------------------------------
Half-Elf/Half-Satyr Str: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 13 Wis: 8 Int: 14 Cha: 11
Stats ALL STR
8fighter, 10wm, 2 bg, 20 wm
01: Blooded, Dodge USE UROBOROS BLOOD!
02: Mobility 03: Expertise 04: WF Morningstar 06: Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack 08: Power Attack 09: Great Cleave 12: Greater Weapon Focus 15: Improved Critical 18: Iron Will 21: Great STR 1 23: Epic Weapon Focus 24: Great STR 2 26: Armor Skin 27: Great STR 3 29: Epic Prowess 30: Great STR 4 32: Overwhelming Critical 33: Great STR 5 35: Devastating Critical 36: Great STR 6 38: Epic Toughness 1 39: Great STR 7 42: LSA Tumble 45: Disarm 48: Improved Disarm 51: Legendary Weapon Focus 54: Legendary Will 57: Great STR 8 60: Great STR 9
Max Discipline, Listen, Craft Weapon, 60 tumble, 5 hide, 4 intimidate, rest to Craft Armor.
How does this build look? AC? AB? Doable for disarming without struggling?
Now the Shifting Ranger!
------------------------------------- ---------Shifting Ranger--------- -------------------------------------
Gnome/Svirfneblin Str: 6 Dex: 8 Con: 14 Wis: 18 Int: 16 Cha: 8
Stats ALL WIS
20 ranger, 5 druid, 13 shifter, 2 ranger
01: Blooded, FE Outsiders 03: Armor Proficiency Heavy 05:FE Abberations 06: WF Unarmed 09: Alertness 10: FE Shapechangers 12: Improved Critical 15: SF, GSF Trans 18: Lightning Reflexes 20: FE Monstrous Humanoids 21: Epic Reflexes 24: Epic Prowess 27: EWF 30: G Wis 1 33: Armor Skin 36: Undead Shape 38: G Wis 2 39: Epic Fort 42: LSA Tumble 45: LFF Humanoid 1 48: LFF Humanoid 2 51: LFF Humanoid 3 54: LFF Undead 1 57: LFF Undead 2 60: LFF Undead 3
Skills: MAX Animal emp, CW, Disc, Hide, Listen, Parry, 61 tumble, CA, Conc.
How does this build look? AC? AB?
THANKS!!!!
Xalo!
|
|
|
Help?
Oct 24, 2011 13:42:18 GMT
Post by chirality on Oct 24, 2011 13:42:18 GMT
Just a quick comment on the WM build:
Without Blind Fight or LSA: Listen (which I would *definitely* suggest on any Half-Elf Str tank) you will have a problem.
|
|
|
Help?
Oct 24, 2011 15:42:06 GMT
Post by darc on Oct 24, 2011 15:42:06 GMT
The WM build ends with an odd number of STR and an odd number of CON. I'd take 1 point of CON at lvl 4 to get the +1 hp at levels 5-60 (that's 55 more hp). And that way you end up with an even numbered STR stat too. I might choose Refelx saves over Will. Before feats your Will is 57 and Refelx is 56 and I think you can cover more will saves with immunity gear than you can reflex based saves... just an opinion.
|
|
|
Help?
Oct 24, 2011 15:52:52 GMT
Post by maljin on Oct 24, 2011 15:52:52 GMT
As for the wm:
AB is 20 (pre-epic BAB) + 10 (epic BAB) + 15 (LL BAB) + 8 (feats) + 11 (wm) + 24 (str mod with a +12 item) + 20 (magical cap) + 1-2 (craft weapon) = 109-110
I've never played a disarmer, but I remember general consensus on disarming ab was about 110, though I'm sure people managed to disarm stuff with lower ab as well. It's as good as you can go with an open subby.
wm's are supposed to get additional bonus feat choices and I think there will be additional disarming and knockdown feats as well (the epic and LL versions).
Chirality is right: You miss LSA: Listen, I'd drop 2 gr strength for LSA and the epic skill focus, since with an ab as high as that you'll find yourself missing because of the conceal more often than because of the ac; so listen is of great importance.
Saves:
fort: 11 (pre-epic) + 10 (epic) + 5 (LL) + 8 (con mod with a +12 item) + 6 (cha mod with a + 12 item) + 20 (magical cap) = 60 reflex: 9 (pre-epic) + 10 (epic) + 5 (LL) + 8 (dex mod) + 6 (cha mod) + 20 (cap) = 59 will: 5 (pre-epic) + 10 (epic) + 5 (LL) + 5 (wis mod) + 6 (cha mod) + 9 (feats) + 20 (cap) = 60
AC in medium armor with large shield:
10 (base) + 8 (dex mod) + 2 (armor skin) + 12 (tumble) + 5 (base armor) + 18 (BUR armor ac) + 2 (base shield) + 14 (BUR shield ac (not sure about that one)) + 17 (BUR deflection) + 17 (BUR natural) + 20 (dodge) = 125 (1 or two more with craft armor and 4 more with girding)
AC and saves are solid, especially for an open subby you might reincarnate into a better subrace once you've seen the first few layers of Hells.
It looks like a very solid build for a beginner; str tanks are not the easiest chars to get gear for in early LLs so you might die once in a while (or bit more often) but once you've acquired a couple of URs, set gear and immunity rings this char should do very well.
Ranger:
AB: 20 (pre-epic) + 10 (epic) + 15 (LL) + 4 (feats) + 20 (magical cap) + 1-2 (craft weapon) + X (ability mod of the form) = 70-71 + X
X = 28 (Drow), 30+1 (Kobold Commando, small size), 31 (Lizard), 32 (Kenku), 28 (Sahuagin), 33 (Risen Lord)
So the overall AB will be 98 - 104 depending on which form you chose. I didn't list the X-values for the other undead shapes since these are not really meant to be a tank shifters favorites and don't merge damage buffs on your weapons.
Saves:
fort: 12 (pre-epic) + 10 (epic) + 5 (LL) + 4 (feats) + 20 (cap) + 10 (con mod) = 61 reflex: 6 (pre-epic) + 10 (epic) + 5 (LL) + 6 (feats) + 20 (cap) + X (form dex mod) = 47 + X will: 6 (pre-epic) + 10 (epic) + 5 (LL) + 20 (cap) + 22 (wis mod) = 63
X = 13 (Drow), 30 (Kobold Commando), 11 (Lizard), 32 (Kenku), 8 (Sahuagin), 7 (Risen Lord)
Reflex is a bit low for the str based forms, but there's little you can do about it. But you're not that far from 60 which is the score most builds aim for.
AC in BUR gear (+12 abilities)
10 (base) + 12 (tumble) + 2 (armor skin) + 19 (BUR heavy amor) + 17 (BUR deflection) + 17 (BUR natural) + 20 (dodge) + 1-2 craft armor + X + Y.
X being the dex mod and Y the extra shield ac most forms get. You can look up both on the wiki. The following values are about what you can expect:
Drow: 128-129 Kobold Commando: 133-134 (+1 for small size) Lizard: 133-134 Kenku: 133-134 Sahuagin: 128-129 Risen Lord: 122
These are surprisingly good. I knew ABs of tank shifters can hit 100+ rather easily (with lwf that is) but I always thought tank shifters would be lacking in defense...
While AC, AB and saves look great on most forms, open subby tank shifters suffer more from the lack of wis (and therefor dc on their abilities) compared to UR or BUR subraces since these usually come with a large wis bonus and some free feats which can be put into more gr. wis feats.
The biggest drawback of tank shifters with 20+ ranger levels is that they're essentially useless until you've got the ability to shift into humanoid forms at level 35 or so and even then they can't stand up to a normal tank because of the lack of shield and tumble ac. While you get tumble at level 43, shield ac won't hit the values listed on the wiki until you've got the form foci (at level 52 or so for the first shape) AND until you're level 60. So unless you're reincarnating an old ranger or shifter with ranger levels, prepare for a really painful leveling experience. Even though I love shifters I would certainly not recommend this build to a new player (or ANY player that is leveling this toon from 1 on).
mal
|
|
|
Help?
Oct 24, 2011 17:25:37 GMT
Post by redbeard on Oct 24, 2011 17:25:37 GMT
All those wonderful greater wildshape feats and you're not going to use any of them effectively. There are books available that allow you to get LFF1-3 in undead or humanoid if you have LFF3 in Wild shape. I'll admit they are tough to get, and when they drop, they could get picked before your chance, but they give you much flexibility.
I'll leave the secret of where they drop to be discovered in game.
Or do you need infinite Greater Wildshape 4 (Shifter 16) to take the LFF Wildshape feats?
|
|
|
Help?
Oct 24, 2011 18:02:25 GMT
Post by maljin on Oct 24, 2011 18:02:25 GMT
Yes, you need to have at least 16 shifter levels to use the books. This in turn means you won't get CL 41 for your ranger spells.
|
|