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Post by leid on Feb 6, 2014 19:29:21 GMT
I didnt make my staff monk until after the nerf, So I never played it during it's hayday, but my 3x staff monks still doesmore damage than any other melee i play with besides a good barb, so I'm still quite happy with it.
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Post by bazukar on Feb 7, 2014 18:24:18 GMT
The Gruumsh chosen stat spread is nothing great, but afterall it provides two epic feats and a very good unique, so it deserves its XR tier. Sure, a crappy XR, but we have spelljammers in the game remember Btw, there's been no staff monk nerf, their +50% bonus has been introduced in this update, quickly deemed as more overpowered than koly ( ) and removed one year after here, a period in which people enjoyed a broken class with high offence and defense, but monk role on this server has always been more defensive, and there were some okay staff monk builds around prior 2012. Speaking about defensive power, +5% concealment is simply huge. Raj, y u so troll? Everyone knew the original damage bonus was broken and needed to be retuned. It was broken for any class that used 2h, not just staff monk. Even during the full bonus days the undisputed god of damage was greven's barbarian with me usually coming behind him to the tune of 100~k damage and even the so called OP staffmaster being 150k~ + behind me. The qstaff situation is a nerf, it gets no 2h bonus. An entire quasiclass and baseclass archetype does not get a 2h damage bonus from its signature weapon. As far as monk roles on the server being defensive it's a matter of perspective I guess. And there were what, 3 or 4 staffmonk builds pre 2012 including mine and okay is stretching it for some. We are in agreement however with how amazing that 5% conceal is.
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Post by Raj on Feb 7, 2014 18:44:33 GMT
Well, any other class using 2h has been toned down from 50% to 40%, not a big nerf (and still a boost over original 0%), but they give up a lot of defence for that. Staffmasters and barbarians gave up nothing for that boost, and deserved the nerfbat. Monks are quite a different matter, they mostly received a huge bump from PL granting them a great AC boost and making lot of specialized/str builds great, the 2h dmg was (big, tasty) cherry on top. Nowadays, I'd proly build a fist one, but staff ones aren't weak or broken, especially with such XR subbie designed for them. I think in the current situation most tank types if well played and geared can be viable in the end game, while it was just staffmonk or staffy or barb back in 2012/13; logs mean little and are layer/party/targeting dependant, so just share what's your experience with such build like the other guy did, is it that bad, compared to other tank types, as of today? Did it lose the vanilla 50% strmod as well? Anyway, there's only one known troll here. I don't think there is anything shocking about that label. It's pretty obvious. Edit: maybe in another topic, cuz this is for XR subs
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 7, 2014 19:01:06 GMT
Raj pretty much summarized my view on this.
That said, I'll reiterate the standard for the XR subs, since it may not be clear to some: We do NOT want more useless subbies. That said, we also don't want subs so good that they're the default for any number of builds. The XR subs should be a clear improvement over the best BUR sub used for the particular build the XR sub is meant for, and should (hopefully) provide some nice unique advantage, one which is well-suited to that build, but which is not overpowering.
My impression is that we got there on most of them, but if anyone doesn't think so, please feel free to elaborate on why, and to make suggestions in line with the above standard. Since no one has these races yet, it's relatively simple to change them at this point.
Funky
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 7, 2014 19:03:45 GMT
I've only come across one such subrace at this point (shameless plug for my other thread). As far as I've seen all of the other XR subraces satisfy those criteria.
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Post by chirality on Feb 7, 2014 19:08:35 GMT
(edit: bleh took to long typing! I dunno I didn't read the others yet but mine should stand anyway I guess) So what about the subrace? Are the bonus feats stepping on toes in terms of 30 monk builds? Are they just poor choices, period? What's the recommendation to replace them? I was interested to try helping make sure it got fixed if it was broken since I feel like my involvement with the XR threads was total fail anyway, and for this sub maybe I contributed to it being unattractive for the people who've said it sucks. Are you guys honestly saying you wouldn't use this subrace over koly? I had assumed that these complaints were literally claiming that even after the conceal bonus it's not worth using. If it's understandably "meh" then I guess it is what it is; maybe (much like BURs) the XR subs aren't always going to be pharlans and kolys and H-Cs? However, if it's simply not good enough, then the sooner this is clearly argued and justified, and improvements are suggested, the sooner Funky's ear could be bent for an "appeal" (hur hur). It looks like most (or all?) of the subs are largely (or entirely?) complaint-free with the exception of this and Fallen; so now's probably as good time as ever to work on setting straight any perceived lack of balance amongst the XRs. Or am I just getting trolled anyway? If all this is just about koly and 2h then I wouldn't have bothered in the first place; I guess if most people think it's fine, they'll pick it from the split when it drops; and those who think it sucks won't bother picking it, and just choose not to use it in favor of koly? Anyway, I'm not sure I understand the nerf thing. It sounds like you're saying that the entire staff monk build is broken and not even worth playing; but isn't it just the same as before the original broken % boost? Wasn't the whole point of 2h weapons--even before the custom % bonus--that they get extra damage from 2h Str? If you're saying that the lack of broken 2h % damage on staff makes the class worthless, then you're basically saying you only played it for the broken 2h % in the first place (and without that broken update it's a waste of time); yet people made it before, and after, the update. So claiming that the class was nerfed doesn't really make sense after admitting that everyone knows the 2h % was broken; a "nerf to fix overpoweredness" isn't equivalent to a "nerf period". ? (honestly not trying to troll, I just am confused by your argument)
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 7, 2014 19:17:59 GMT
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head, Chirality. I personally think Favored of Gruumsh is fine. I think the only subrace you could say is possible better suited for staff monk is Half-Ogre Mage, and, even then, that's only if you want WM levels, and you lose the Wisdom bonus which is significant. Favored of Gruumsh gives a substantial boost to all the stats you would want on a staff monk, some nice feats, both defensive and offensive, and that absolutely OP 5% bonus to Empty Body as well. It's a solid subrace. The only boost it could possibly use, since it is somewhat short on feats relative to other XR subraces, is something like Power Attack and Great Cleave, to help give some of the feats of the OC/DC Quarterstaff line, and free up some pre-epic feats to give players the option to add Harper Scout splash, if desired, or even WM splash if they so desire.
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Post by Raj on Feb 7, 2014 19:45:29 GMT
My impression is that we got there on most of them, but if anyone doesn't think so, please feel free to elaborate on why, and to make suggestions in line with the above standard. Since no one has these races yet, it's relatively simple to change them at this point. I think the tanarukk is going to be the underdog there, 6str/4con/4int on half orc with 3 barb specific feats, a feat useful only if you splash harper scout, and a special that does exactly nothing if you have a cleric or a mage buffing your weapon; I think I'd use a half orc koly over it, definitely a superior choice if wm splash, and even w/o it still grants a nice boost to the offstat; since everybody agrees koly is OP, let say I'd even use half guardinal over it, especially if 3 pally splash for saves/divine might. The build seems to be aimed at a 31/5harper/4fighter splash, but then the Neraphim (same stats boni on human base, with 5 standard tank feats and +50% imm) makes a better tank when you accept the weak dexterity on both races. Considering a standard weapon buff provides +4 damage dices and you get it in 99.9% of parties (seriously, who goes w/o cleric AND mage? okay, I just did a prince but it really was the first time people were wondering about lack of fire buffs in all these years ), the tanarukk +3 dices could be safely improved to +6 dices, on par with the Sword Archon (self darkfire +2 dices); if that seems too much, consider a bfm can already buff +5 dices for the whole party, and the unique has to be unique afterall.
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Post by bazukar on Feb 7, 2014 19:52:02 GMT
I would not use this subrace over koly, half-guard or zeny on a staff monk. I think stinger, half moly and half kyton are at least equal to this sub for staff monk purposes. For a tanking monk this looks to be the ultimate sub, and I would use it in a heartbeat. If you use this for a staff monk you had better not take more than 25 monk levels because if you do your bonus feats are basically SR or power crit feats, and if you are not pure or near to it the SR feats lose value rapidly. Staff monks do damage; this sub does not facilitate it. It funnels high monk level builds towards one build path and the same locked in feats every time; I can't make the most of my bonus feats, I have to pick up sub optimal ones. These 2 bonus feats are often staples in other class builds bonus feat choices because they too have lackluster bonus feats. In fact, this sub almost punishes any staff monk build that has more than 22 levels in it. Also the hit to int is pretty harsh.
It has nothing to do with anything being broken; staff monks aren't broken per se, I just find it disappointing knowing that however I build and gear my staff monk I will always be dumpstered in damage terms by a 2h barb, cot, fighter and wm that is even remotely comparably built, geared and played, and it wasn't always like that. As far as broken damage I came up with the staff monk build I later used at the end of 2010, and posted it in 2011 before any updates went down. His ac/ab was 131/103 at the time so its not like he was squishy or he needed any updates to make him strong. He does less damage now than he did in 2011. That sucks. I do apologize for the slight derail involving staff monks the archetype rather than the sub but I felt the two were intertwined so i went off topic a bit.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 7, 2014 20:57:51 GMT
So what edit are you proposing? Whatever it is, it sounds like it'd have to give up the Empty Body bonus. You can't have something that is tops in both offense and defense.
Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 7, 2014 20:58:54 GMT
My impression is that we got there on most of them, but if anyone doesn't think so, please feel free to elaborate on why, and to make suggestions in line with the above standard. Since no one has these races yet, it's relatively simple to change them at this point. I think the tanarukk is going to be the underdog there, 6str/4con/4int on half orc with 3 barb specific feats, a feat useful only if you splash harper scout, and a special that does exactly nothing if you have a cleric or a mage buffing your weapon; I think I'd use a half orc koly over it, definitely a superior choice if wm splash, and even w/o it still grants a nice boost to the offstat; since everybody agrees koly is OP, let say I'd even use half guardinal over it, especially if 3 pally splash for saves/divine might. The build seems to be aimed at a 31/5harper/4fighter splash, but then the Neraphim (same stats boni on human base, with 5 standard tank feats and +50% imm) makes a better tank when you accept the weak dexterity on both races. Considering a standard weapon buff provides +4 damage dices and you get it in 99.9% of parties (seriously, who goes w/o cleric AND mage? okay, I just did a prince but it really was the first time people were wondering about lack of fire buffs in all these years ), the tanarukk +3 dices could be safely improved to +6 dices, on par with the Sword Archon (self darkfire +2 dices); if that seems too much, consider a bfm can already buff +5 dices for the whole party, and the unique has to be unique afterall. I could maybe see doing that. Anyone else have thoughts on this? Funky
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Post by leid on Feb 7, 2014 22:02:01 GMT
So what edit are you proposing? Whatever it is, it sounds like it'd have to give up the Empty Body bonus. You can't have something that is tops in both offense and defense. Funky Give it 2 Int to make up for the -2 on half-orc, and change one of the bonus feats to dodge mobility expertise spring attack or whirlwind attack and I would be happy with it. That would put it "on par" with koly, with the 5% conceal bonus making it slightly better.
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Post by bazukar on Feb 7, 2014 22:32:19 GMT
So what edit are you proposing? Whatever it is, it sounds like it'd have to give up the Empty Body bonus. You can't have something that is tops in both offense and defense. Funky I agree about the empty body. I'm not sure on a unique for a staffmonk sub, except maybe it increases damage by x% when using a Qstaff or somesuch and str is greater than dex. I'd remove all the current feats and instead go with power attack and cleave or great cleave, expertise and weapon specialization. You have a carrot for wm but would still be a 4 feat investment, though mitigated by not having to take the power attack and cleave feats when building, the same for HS splash. The fighter option isn't automatically gone just because of weapon spec, the early bonus feats could help with a disarming build, finishing weapon spec or other class combos. There are some choices that have to be made for this sub as you definitely can't do it all. Do I go WM and crit, or fighter and disarm utility with specialization? Or a bit more tanky with more monk levels and less splash. Going Mnk/wm/hs would be very feat heavy and would probably preclude beefing weapon spec, creating an either or choice. Also in new areas I don't think the tanky option will be a bad idea tbh. This is off the top of my head, I haven't sat down and tried hardcore building yet, later today I can try and crunch some numbers. The only other thing I'm uncomfortable with on this build is the stat spread. 2 dex is pretty low for a frontline damage dealer, and having a 2 int deficit on a skillpoint hungry build hurts, or one that needs to hit 13 int for WM feats. I'd actually like 2 of that wis moved to dex or int so that beefing int isnt quite so painful. I would even take 2 less str if it got moved to int.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 8, 2014 2:27:16 GMT
Would it be helpful to create a thread for suggestions of XR subraces that may be in need of further edits before they're added to the mod? I can get that started if so.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 8, 2014 2:49:08 GMT
Would it be helpful to create a thread for suggestions of XR subraces that may be in need of further edits before they're added to the mod? I can get that started if so. Sure, that'd be great. This one's a little unweildy. Funky
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