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Post by gandoron on Apr 9, 2013 2:00:51 GMT
So there's the Koly argument and the "new WM subby - spiker" argument, but let's ignore those for a moment.
The stats are too low because it's switched to Half-Orc, it should get 2 more stat pts. To make up for the +2 -2 -2. The other subbies that are half orc are str based and either have 8->10 with 12 stat points or 6->8 with 14 points. Staffy goes from str 4->6, so it should have 16 stat pts not 14. I would put these 2 points in Dex so 4.4.2.0.6.0 before HO and 6.4.2.0.4.-2 after. I also think +4 regen is probably the worst special on the subbies. SF/ESF: Conc are not very useful. SM don't combat cast and rarely re-buff in the middle of combat.
I think the special should be staffmaster based, maybe: +1 die to FW/SW if cast on self. EV gets a contingency like effect 1/rest +10 to dispel checks
As it relates to Spiker – It will have a Str/Dex 4/4 istead of 6/2 and +2 Cha. Feats are essentially a wash. Gains 20% blud imm, large size (for a dex SM option) and human for a splash option.
-G
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Post by chirality on Apr 9, 2013 2:06:47 GMT
Okay, not trying to stir up a whole nother can of crap here.
But I think the sorc and wiz specials are again in a bad spot. +1 ruin and -25 ASF is pretty strong, as well as +1 DC for the wiz. The sorc special seems perfect as a racial special but the wiz one seems ill-suited to me. It seems to only serve to partially close a gap between sorc and wiz, rather than do anything "special". Would this +1 DC stack with styg robes? How about +1 SP instead, stacking with all other sources? This seems much more useful to any wiz build and capitalizes more on a different strength than sorc DC. If the playing field for DC won't be equal than at least SP could be improved to match free autochannel for pure sorc.
I may have missed the explanation but I still don't understand why the XR wiz is human base. Or is this to divorce wiz from lootmage standard? Or is it because there's already so many elf XRs?
Why does the sorc sub get Armor Skin too? Was the wiz too strong in comparison?
Due to parity of sorc feats, full ESP line + Ruin is a much greater bonus for them compared to 2 pre-epic + Grt Int II for wiz. Add AS on top and it seems again nearly as lopsided as the original starting lineup. I don't think +1 DC 0-6 is so powerful given that wiz isn't a DC machine in the first place and +1 DC on low level spells only goes so far. Again it doesn't even go far to bring wiz to par with sorc on class basis, let alone being as situationally powerful as extra ruin + ASF reduction.
I think wiz special should be something more aligned with other "specials"
--I didn't think breach or mords or dispel imm was too bad. What happened to that? It was only "overpowered" as sorc special in comparison to wiz one being 100% bad.
--How about innate survival to multiples like Planewalker as sole wiz special? That would go a long way I think, especially since wiz needs slot gear so much more than sorc--"wasting" slot on survival gear hurts wiz a lot more than sorc; this just isn't as noticeable currently due to Genie having levi and sorc not.
--What about "special" being just more bonus feats? Keep Genie SP feats as special. That'd really help open up wiz XR build diversity and help cement wiz role as "generalist". By contrast, 0-6 DC is kind of making wiz want to be more like sorc rather than helping their own niche.
--Free EMA with +1 use. This is in line with sorc uber bonus feats + extra ruin + ASF thing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 2:47:47 GMT
Due to parity of sorc feats, full ESP line + Ruin is a much greater bonus for them compared to 2 pre-epic + Grt Int II for wiz. Add AS on top and it seems again nearly as lopsided as the original starting lineup. I don't think +1 DC 0-6 is so powerful given that wiz isn't a DC machine in the first place and +1 DC on low level spells only goes so far. Again it doesn't even go far to bring wiz to par with sorc on class basis, let alone being as situationally powerful as extra ruin + ASF reduction. Can you explain? Extend+Empower and 2 Great Int seems more powerful than spell pen line + Greater ruin. Wiz gets 4 universally taken feats and sorc gets only 3. Greater ruin isn't taken on a standard sorc build, neither is armor skin - both are just interesting "afterthoughts". Wiz bonus of +1 dc to 0-6 is also more powerful than +1 use of greater ruin in my opinion (I have no use for armored mage bonus). There's a lot of useful low level spells and a dc boost helps a lot for them. Honestly I would be fine if sorc got same bonus as wiz. I would prefer if armor skin and greater ruin were both dropped and sorc got 4 universally taken feats like wizard - like, Grt Cha I/II + Spell pen/Greater Spell pen or something. Yeah it's not very different but I would rather the two subs be equitable than different for flavor in my opinion.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 3:03:16 GMT
Fallen is too similar to Fallen Angel to me, even disregarding the (as far as I can tell) lack of "real" lore basis. I feel the same about Fallen/Fallen Angel, but it came down to the appearances again. Fallen is a template, like God-blooded or Lolth-touched - we don't have any homebrew races left in the XRs. I'm still sort of tempted to change them to Naztharune Rakshasas, but there'd be no difference between the two Rak appys (nevermind the non-dynamic appearance issue). Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 3:21:14 GMT
So there's the Koly argument and the "new WM subby - spiker" argument, but let's ignore those for a moment. The stats are too low because it's switched to Half-Orc, it should get 2 more stat pts. To make up for the +2 -2 -2. The other subbies that are half orc are str based and either have 8->10 with 12 stat points or 6->8 with 14 points. Staffy goes from str 4->6, so it should have 16 stat pts not 14. I would put these 2 points in Dex so 4.4.2.0.6.0 before HO and 6.4.2.0.4.-2 after. I also think +4 regen is probably the worst special on the subbies. SF/ESF: Conc are not very useful. SM don't combat cast and rarely re-buff in the middle of combat. As I already explained, the notion that Half-Orcs should get more points to offset their starting negatives is laughable. It assumes that all stats are created equal for a given build; that there's no such thing as a dump stat. Neither Bioware nor I accept that premise. As for the regen, it's purely for flavor, because Ogre Magi have regen. To call that the 'worst special' while ignoring the 'Feats' written before it is silliness. 5 feats vs. 7 is a 'wash'? 0_0 Funky
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Post by chirality on Apr 9, 2013 3:30:20 GMT
Can you explain? Extend+Empower and 2 Great Int seems more powerful than spell pen line + Greater ruin. Wiz gets 4 universally taken feats and sorc gets only 3. Greater ruin isn't taken on a standard sorc build, neither is armor skin - both are just interesting "afterthoughts". Wiz bonus of +1 dc to 0-6 is also more powerful than +1 use of greater ruin in my opinion (I have no use for armored mage bonus). There's a lot of useful low level spells and a dc boost helps a lot for them. Honestly I would be fine if sorc got same bonus as wiz. I would prefer if armor skin and greater ruin were both dropped and sorc got 4 universally taken feats like wizard - like, Grt Cha I/II + Spell pen/Greater Spell pen or something. Yeah it's not very different but I would rather the two subs be equitable than different for flavor in my opinion. Well, my reasoning is:
Those 3 SP feats are relatively a much greater power boost to feat-starved sorc than 2 metamagic feats for wiz. Wiz is already swimming in pre-epic bonus feats. Yes, this opens up 2 more ... foci feats? But wiz faces the same LL/PL bottleneck for finishing off schools as sorc. So what does +2 SF really translate into, unless the wiz is going the route of not maxing schools and rather going ESF in LLs/LSF in PLs? The Great Int II is nice for sure! And saves 2 epic/LL feats in kind, so this does effectively translate into +1 LSF or +2 ESF (potentially). I just don't see it as doing very much. I don't want to do another "koly vs XR" type argument here but meh. To start with, human base is a downgrade. No lev is a downgrade. Emp/Ext is about the same as SP/GSP, but in fact worse, if only by a tiny degree. +2 epic feats is nice but to me that is the bare minimum for XR sub--I mean look at other XRs and it's not very amazing. On the other hand, comparing sorc XR to rad gen is such a huge improvement that it's no argument. Armor Skin does seem pretty useless, but the SP feats is huge.
That said, I agree that I may have been to harsh in claiming the wiz was so much worse off. I agree 100% with your other comments--if anything, +1 ruin would be more suitable for wiz, and +1 DC 0-6 would be more suitable for sorc. Too strong? Shrug--sorc is DC monster so might as well give em a free styg robe. I also think you make a great point with making them more "equitable" at the cost of "style points". I'm not sure Great Int II is a good choice at all. It seems very troubling. I'd probably remove it and start over (again). I also find ASF pretty useless "personally" but given potential uses it could be strong. What about something like this: Wiz SP + GSP + Emp + "special" = /Ruin + Extra Ruin/ or /Great Int II/ Sorc SP + GSP + ESP + Emp + "special" = DC boost That might be pretty strong for both but at least to me they look equally powerful, and retain a "unique" nature. Again I think the difference between wiz and sorc feats must be considered: +bonus "everyone wants" feats for sorc is a bigger boost in power than the same number for wiz I think. So, this way sorc gets awesome feats--truly 4 feats everyone wants. DC boost as special might be too strong on top of that but eh, sorc is uber anyway. If this doesn't stack with gear then it's a great perk. I threw Emp in, in case the +DC isn't strong enough with the 3 SP feats. Wiz goes back to getting free ruin--I argued against this originally but that was more due to arguing relative sorc vs wiz at that point. Free ruin + extra ruin would be super nice and I think for wiz equal in power to +DC for sorc. Wiz gets Emp/Ext which is universally desired, and 2 SP feats which is also a given. Bonus ruin + extra ruin should equal out with -1 epic feat vs. sorc SP + DC boost.
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Post by gandoron on Apr 9, 2013 3:55:14 GMT
SF/ESF: Conc are not very useful. SM don't combat cast and rarely re-buff in the middle of combat. 5 feats vs. 7 is a 'wash'? 0_0 Funky Because this build does max concentration (I have 30 conc on my build for Ely), SF/ESF conc really shouldn't count as feats. So spiker and Orge-magi have the same number of useful feats 5. I completely understand the HO improves Str while decreasing what is commonly dump stats. Also, staffy needs LSA-Tumble, and you don't have enough HO subs, so I understand why you want to do it. I still think the special (Regen +4) is not great, and feel the spiker is probably a better SM subby overall. However it will probably be easier to get Ogre-Magi due to lower market demand. -G
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Post by shardelay on Apr 9, 2013 4:00:16 GMT
I tend to agree with Gand on this staffy question. There aren't a lot of dump stats in HG - the changes to HG over vanilla have made all stats generally more valuable. Str/dex are always good for melee. int is necessary for all builds with HG skills. Con is hp on every build. Cha and wis are at times dump stats. The stats on the staff master XR sub vs WM xr sub is fine due to this, but as a general guideline it makes half orcs inferior in most builds. I also agree with him on the feats. 7 vs 5 - sure 7 is larger than 5, but the concentration feats are pretty meh unless perhaps im in aboleths and cant make the check - whcih i should be able to make anyway.
If I was building a staffmaster and had access to all the XR subs, I would not use the XR Staffy sub in it's latest incarnation. I prefer the feats of the WM sub, and i prefer the bonus of the wm sub. I think that should be the general final check: if you had all the XR subs would you use the XYZ sub for build XYZ. In this case, id not.
I think you overcome this by punching out more feats for staff melee and then counter the inevitable desire to make staff mnks with it by perhaps doing some neg wis... or maybe restricting the alignment
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 4:04:20 GMT
Those 3 SP feats are relatively a much greater power boost to feat-starved sorc than 2 metamagic feats for wiz. Wiz is already swimming in pre-epic bonus feats. Yes, this opens up 2 more ... foci feats? Of course it is. Because you ignore the fact that wizard gets Great Intelligence II until later in your post. If wizard were given Spell Pen + Greater Spell Pen instead of 2 metamagic feats the problem of "So what does +2 SF really translate into, unless the wiz is going the route of not maxing schools and rather going ESF in LLs/LSF in PLs?" is the exact same. This is like saying that Great Intelligence II is a much greater power boost than Greater Ruin (ignoring the fact that sorc also gets 3 spell pen feats) Great Intelligence II are absolutely THE best feats a wizard could hope for short of free Polymathy. They are epic feats meaning no pre-epic feat mess and they are universally taken unlike armor skin, greater ruin...I'm talking about the feats here. If your issue is with base race and special abilities, fine, but that means that every sub free feat short of polymathy does "not very much." Spell pen + Greater spell pen are pre-epic feats too. Your post makes it sounds like you think that Spell pen and Greater spell pen are epic feats - they aren't, only epic spell pen is. Giving wizard spell pen + greater spell pen does the (nearly almost) the same thing as these two metamagic feats. "Yes, this opens up 2 more ... foci feats?" Why do you rate SP feats so highly? Even skipping on extend spell you'd still be taking something like spell focus that is not useful as you described... Your "suggested" wiz race is worse off than the current wiz race because it frees up 3 pre-epic feats for wizards to take more useless foci feats that they will keep at GSF instead of the wonders that Great Int II does for them (I see you suggested Great Int as a "Special" but if it were then the wiz race would be almost the exact same as it is now except freeing up 1 more pre-epic feat, accomplishing next to nothing..?). Suggested sorc subby also just gives sorcs 1 pre-epic feat over current version which would only translate into something like maximize spell.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 4:10:38 GMT
5 feats vs. 7 is a 'wash'? 0_0 Funky Because this build does max concentration (I have 30 conc on my build for Ely), SF/ESF conc really shouldn't count as feats. So being able to put those skill points elsewhere, or pass checks under penalties, has no use? Sorry, no sale. Hyperbole gets you nowhere with me. Instead, try suggesting some feats you would find more useful, or another special suited to the sub. How do you square that understanding with your last post? I don't think you do. Half-Ogre Magi was the best fit for the sub, though I might've picked Half-Eldritch Giant if we had better appys for them (the only good appys are size huge, hard to cure even with a resizing to its walkmesh). Sure, it's nice to have a spread of races, but that tends to take care of itself when you go to source for good race picks, as sourcebooks have an incredible variety of race options. Still silly season here, I see. What about the 4 Intim I put on Ibixians because it fit the race? WHERE IS YOUR OUTRAGE SIR?!? Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 4:31:18 GMT
I tend to agree with Gand on this staffy question. That's ok, no one's perfect. As it relates to SMs, the notion advanced by Gand that the build is at all disadvantaged by the H-O net negative in stats, is absurd, because of dump stats. If you disagree, please point me to the SM build in the SM build forum that splashes pally for saves. Ok, you're right, that was mean. Instead, point me to one that puts even a SINGLE point into Charisma that they don't have to. I'll spare you the suspense - there isn't one. There is, however, a Howler build that manages to get it to the bare miniumum possible, 3. When you look up dump stat on Wikipedia, there's a picture of a Staffmaster's Charisma. I swear I didn't just put in there. There's also the theory, which we based many earlier race iterations on, that ab stats were more valuable than others on melee builds, but I see no reason to delve into that much more complex discussion. We pretty obviously made some mistakes with those subs. That's marginally more reasonable, but again, if you want to criticize the feat picks...suggest something better! FWIW, area pens in EEs will be substantial, demis or no, but player perceptions are also important in ensuring a sub's use. In this, I completely agree. Except with your improper use of the conjunction 'it's'. @.@ Oh yeah, I went there. And I'm not going back to fix my typos, either. Feats such as... 0_0 Funky
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Post by chirality on Apr 9, 2013 4:39:49 GMT
Okay. I didn't really word the argument(s) very well but either way I'm wrong so it's not worth trying to "fix". After realizing the errors of my previous faulty analyses, I think the 2 do look pretty balanced technically. Just still a bit off. I think I was too quick to "nod my head" but gloss over your earlier statements. I wanted to keep "cool specials" but you're right--it's overcomplicating matters just for the sake of "being different". I think ditching the fancy stuff and going down to parallels as you suggest is a good way to avoid thorniness. But for your reduction are you still keeping the "specials"? GSP + Great Stat II + DC boost/Ruins? If you're saying Ruin + free ruin is weaker than 0-6 DC, then how to solve that?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 4:44:25 GMT
If dropping ruin is not the answer then I would say the answer is ruin needs a DC boost for PL.
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Post by gandoron on Apr 9, 2013 5:11:31 GMT
Lol, funky.
giving EWF instead of both SF/ESF conc would do it, but that's a lot of feats. Also fits for staff monks.
I know WS/EWS was in the initial subby, however that allows the entire spec progression of feats, right?
You could also just give it a good special, potentially one that fits staffy. That would potentially offset the spiker's lead of 20% blud, +2 cha, Human (+1 skill/lvl and more flex, such as no LSA tumble and monk splash). Going from Human to HO cost 1 skill/lvl, way more than the SF/ESF conc made up for if you are counting skill points.
I had suggested 3 before:
+1 die to FW/SW if cast on self. EV gets a contingency like effect 1/rest +10 to dispel checks Immunity to Area Mord (was this considered OP to begin with?)
I'm trying in earnest to come up with reasonable ideas. Some people put a lot of time into these subs, trying to respect that!
Here are the SM attributes that most of the builds that might use this class wouldn't have Qstaff (staff monk shares this) buff caster high dodge rate, due to conceal
The specials I noted above try to fit this, as would something like "epic dodge", but that's way OP.
BTW, Ibixian's get "fast and +2 vs KD checks" as a special that's great. If you'd given them "intim 4" as a special I'd have said that was silly as well. For almost all of the subbies skills are given to meet reqs, not as a special.
-G
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Post by chirality on Apr 9, 2013 5:13:44 GMT
If dropping ruin is not the answer then I would say the answer is ruin needs a DC boost for PL. I think dropping ruin is the answer--as well as the wiz DC boost. Neither seem appropriate for each class--if anything swapping them around seems more suitable. But either way the DC boost is pretty tough to balance. At face value, and for lower-level and/or low demi play, Ruin seems very nice, but you're right that with 65 max it eventually becomes pretty unattractive. And editing that atm seems to start getting pretty complicated. Or are you saying drop Ruin for sorc in exchange for something better, and keep wiz the same? If so I am lost for what to give sorc then. I'd rather drop both specials and do GSP + Emp + Great Stat II for both and call it a day. 4 needed feats + one more needed feat as special? But then that starts to look too strong compared to other caster subs...meh. Maybe reverting to the original and doing 4 feats + some kind of immunity would be good. Something a little easier to draw a clear line of comparison for "that special = that special"...feats is the easiest but 5 needed feats seems overkill. If mords/breach/dispel is out (which sounds good to me, it's better reserved for caster tank specials), then I'm at a loss. Everything I can think of seems either too weak and fluffy or too strong.
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