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Post by Torin on Feb 21, 2014 15:42:03 GMT
And I would like to have a Subrace Book Shop - Like the Aug shop.
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Post by tank on Feb 21, 2014 16:19:54 GMT
and I would like a ferarri for christmas
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on Feb 21, 2014 16:34:53 GMT
A UR or even free race with demi and paragon levels will be more powerful than a BUR without.
I won't be forming my full oppinion on the 2-book requirement until I see Limbo drop rates.
With the large number of new races and the class and even build specific tailoring of the races, in a (potentially) really hard area of the game, and a level of investment in characters that discourages parking them and starting from scratch, changing the 2 book requirements for upgrades may have some merit. An alternate cost to the 2nd book (vs doing away with it entirely) would be beneficial, be it another (but not matching) book, a number of books of a lesser grade, a limit of 1 upgrade per account to that subrace per book read, or some other cost.
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Post by KnightErrant on Feb 21, 2014 16:35:01 GMT
I really think subraces could be set loot, instead of random drop... This would lead to them being farmed and likely turned into chest fodder...would also likely turn UR subs into more meaningless loot drops than they already are ? KE.
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Post by KnightErrant on Feb 21, 2014 16:50:56 GMT
Some interesting threads involving the perceived "uselessness" of non BUR subbie toons... From January of this year, first HC Nessus win. Party Composition was; Wiz 39/Rogue 1 - Illithid Sorc 40 - Rakshasa Bard 39/Pal 1 - Choas Gnome Druid 39/Monk 1 - Fallen Angel Druid 39/Monk 1 - Stargazer Sorc 12/Pal 3/RDD 25 - Dragonblooded Bard 2/BG 8/BDD 30 - Tinker Gnome Druid 10/Shifter 30 - Doppleganger Cleric 39/Monk 1 - Fallen Angel Druid 20/Sorc 19/Monk 1 - ? Think party level range was 63-69. One player did not tag because still needed phleg. Was a very smooth run, all players performed very well in their roles. Thread about the first two or three successful Nessus runs from long ago...before Amnesia immunity items, Master/BUR/UR augs, +14 or +16 gear and Paragon levels. highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/3937/nessus-conqueredAnd a interesting thread where getting less than a billion gold for a UR race was a bad thing once upon a time...lol highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/2911/maximum-price-marketEnjoy KE. Side Note: Awhile back I had a new player with a level one toon DM message me that he was having trouble getting the Half Janni subrace to work and did I have any ideas why it wasn't working....I told him they weren't in the game yet even tho they had been created for the new area's of the game. He thanked me for my time and said he'd check back from time to time to see when they were available ingame....he logged before I could explain that wasn't the only thing keeping him from playing that subrace...
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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 21, 2014 16:53:23 GMT
A UR or even free race with demi and paragon levels will be more powerful than a BUR without. I won't be forming my full oppinion on the 2-book requirement until I see Limbo drop rates. With the large number of new races and the class and even build specific tailoring of the races, in a (potentially) really hard area of the game, and a level of investment in characters that discourages parking them and starting from scratch, changing the 2 book requirements for upgrades may have some merit. An alternate cost to the 2nd book (vs doing away with it entirely) would be beneficial, be it another (but not matching) book, a number of books of a lesser grade, a limit of 1 upgrade per account to that subrace per book read, or some other cost. This is another drawback I see to the build specific tailoring of XRs producing many more of them than there are BURs. I think Funky plans for it to take years for a player to upgrade their characters to XRs though. I expect that most people won't have XR race characters for a long time, because it definitely is too much of an investment in time to relevel new characters. It was easy with BURs as you tend to get those before you even get demi characters. XRs though you'd be looking at redoing 5x demi and 125M xp.
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Post by Raj on Feb 21, 2014 17:01:26 GMT
This game can be ''won'' with open, secret, urs subbies, with low level set gear, using level 35 weapons, using unrandomized gear, playing drunk, playing dumb, relying on the other 9 to do all the job and so on. I think nobody is arguing about that.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 21, 2014 17:18:27 GMT
And I would like to have a Subrace Book Shop - Like the Aug shop. Actually, that's not entirely out of the question. I'm planning to put in an XR shop, which you will be able to purchase from (but not unlimited in quantity like the aug shop). It will use soul shards, but the pricing would be difficult to explain succinctly. We could also put select BURs on the list as well, though I'm not super-keen on the idea. It would, however, tend to make the XRs slightly more valuable as an offset. Funky
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Post by foxicious on Feb 21, 2014 18:40:50 GMT
I read every single of your answers and I really appreciate that you took time to read and criticize the above idea. Only 2 further comments if you allow me: Sabergirl-Yojimbo : I tried to make a really strong point that open-subraces can be viable and competitive. Several builds on this forums really make BUR look like an optional upgrade. What I wanted to point out vividly is the depressive feeling of playing your first toon while knowing after you get a BUR race,because of the 2-Books requirement, that toon will be probably end up a character selection number. I love my kobold. I LOVE MY KOBOLD, and no rad.genasi will ever replace it! (hint about over powerfulness lies around here...) TheRaja-chainlink : You know how much I appreciate your point of view in the game and again your suggestions are wise but I tried to subtlety eliminate such a reaction from your think-alikes : This suggestion is not an attempt to make the game cheesier and easier,eliminating the grind. I love a challenge,(and you know it better than me,HG itself is not an easy game anyone could play,another reason I LOVE THIS MOD) and I love waiting for a long-awaited reward. But really, does acquiring -> 2 BOOKS of the same BUR race <- adds up to the challenge, or is it a redundant obstacle to the joy HG offers? That is the real question I want to ask out there.
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Post by Enius the White on Feb 21, 2014 18:45:26 GMT
I think inherent in this discussion is the idea that open subs (or UR subs) can't be effective in endgame runs. That simply isn't the case. It's harder and yes you won't be *as* effective, especially as a caster, but calling such a character a "leech" by definition is simply unfair. Normally your bigger problem as a new player isn't the subrace, it's a lack of gear/knowledge that gets you killed over and over. -S We hear this a lot, and it is absolutely true. If fact, to elaborate, there is even more to this equation. There are at least 5 components to realistically making a toon viable/fun in the end game 1) Gear 2) Play Experience 3) Your party 4) BUR subby 5) Level: 1) Gear - The range of gear is way wider than ever, from vestments, motes, augs, to uber-randomization. Even just randomization/augs would now allow for a level 40 toon to survive the shallow hells with an "ideal" uber-UR gear set. Add ideal BURs, sets, augs, arti, mote, weapons, etc, and a tricked-out open subby can easily outperform a poorly geared BUR subby. 2) Play Experience - Knowing which build to choose, and knowing each run, spawn trigger, etc, is priceless. 3) Party - The power difference between a regular, organized, full party, and hopping onto pic-up runs is absolutely immense. The right party is so key that the odd HG veteran player has actually openly admitted that they will only run with their choice of party, despite top notch gear, BUR subby, level, etc. 4) BUR subby - In my books, this is the least important of these 5, but a very nice power bump, and "acceptance" value for sure. 5) Level - With level 80 power, and only level 60 runs, a player can grind lowbee areas until they gain ~100 million xp, and the corresponding power bump. This is not uncommon now, having a negative impact on end-game run formation, end-game play experience gain, and player retention. I strongly recommend against grinding lowbee area for xp, or gold. In almost every case, players commenting on the viability of open-UR subby end game toons have the more important 3-4 elements (above) covered. A well geared open subby build, run by an experienced player, in a large party, will perform just fine in the end-game. A poorly geared, open subby build, run by an inexperienced player, in a mixed-bag party... good luck . New players do not generally have any of these other key benefits at their disposal. Why should they? New players recognize/accept this reality, and it is prudent when they try hard to cover #4 asap. Despite being elusive, a BUR subby is still the fastest one, by far, to achieve (despite the new level 60 BUR book use restriction, compounding the earlier (partially redacted) drop rate reduction). Play experience, and uber gear, by contrast will require years of dedicated play to acquire. The best current model for progression is the one Chain outlined above. Get to 60, buy the cheapest BUR book or 2 you can find (many for sale right now), reincarnate (with 2) or restart with it. Then (continue to) play the end game (Oinos is good for gear as well) in any party you can find, until you can get the good BUR subby(s) that you want. The "extra" reincarnation book is then moot, as you are already BUR. The first good BUR book you win will likely not be the one you need, corresponding to your toon, but a trade here (good BUR for good BUR) is usually viable, and fast. If you have a buddy, or a bot, then going straight to Oinos at open subby ~60 is likely the best way to go. The spawns are predictable, and once you figure out how to avoid/evade the disabling attacks, you will get good loot, and even BUR subbies faster than any other method (no 10-way split). You can also figure out any build specific defensive holes, and offensive strengths (reading combat logs, and "!list imm" are your friends). Oinos is also a good option, when you have play time constraints. Even just 15 minutes could get you a sweet gear drop, or BUR subby, if you get lucky!
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 21, 2014 19:55:11 GMT
Given all the gripes about the double-book requirement, as well as the other concerns raised (about other factors like hell-readiness of newer players), I'm open to reconsidering the double-book requirement, IF we come up with something else to address those concerns. A single-use option, while nice, is not my favored approach, as it requires a partial recode of the entire subrace system, something that is very prone to cause complications downstream. So, I'm going to invoke a rule of critical theory. It is not sufficient to simply criticize a system; you must also suggest a superior alternative, given all the salient concerns. By the way, if anyone can find a cite to that rule, I'd appreciate it, since I drew a blank, much to my chagrin. Funky
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Post by Torin on Feb 21, 2014 20:07:11 GMT
Ok, first try:
Upgrade with ANY book of the tier is possible + implement that Subrace book shop. People could purchase the most cheap book for upgrading. Maybe sell even an "Anonymous Book" that is only of use for upgrading.
"Anonymous Book" could also drop in Hades or could be a set loot at end of a hell run.
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Post by condude on Feb 21, 2014 20:07:50 GMT
Perhaps keep the two-book system, but make an account's first toon that hits 60 get a reinc without the 2 book requirement. I'm not sure how viable this is, but it would stop newbies the major problem of having an open level 60 toon as their only toon, and doesn't radically alter the average player's power. It may be difficult to script, but I'll leave that to Funky et al. to decide.
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Post by Yojimbo on Feb 21, 2014 20:14:31 GMT
Torin I believe really has the most spot on idea for a simple solution that allows for minimal change to the system while greatly reducing the complications a user has in this process.
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Post by KnightErrant on Feb 21, 2014 20:28:57 GMT
Perhaps keep the two-book system, but make an account's first toon that hits 60 get a reinc without the 2 book requirement. I'm not sure how viable this is, but it would stop newbies the major problem of having an open level 60 toon as their only toon, and doesn't radically alter the average player's power. It may be difficult to script, but I'll leave that to Funky et al. to decide. This would likely lead everyone to make a separate account for every new toon they make since it would automatically become BUR once hitting 60. KE.
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