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Post by desocupado on Jul 4, 2014 11:02:48 GMT
The item swapping idea isn't bad, but it would need a price. A bunch of gold? Make the upgraded gear character bound - so the equipment can't be used by others.
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Post by khaine on Jul 4, 2014 15:39:54 GMT
I intended to allow swapping within small sets of items, within the rarity tier & level.
So Jadon's Reserve, Karmic Resonance, Quickening Earth & Ubiquitous Discernment are the four Uncommon caster belts. You could go to this shop with a Jadon's Reserve +3 and trade it for a Quickening Earth +3, with all of the augments/randomisations preserved (with any alterations to a sorceror-spell slot becoming a like alteration to druid properties).
Other families could include armours and weapons, though due to their numbers they could be split into proficiency required. Each tier also has a number of cloaks and bracers, which center around adding to various ability scores. However, these do not cover every ability and cross rarities, so do not suit this very well. Some families do not extend across tiers, for example the level 5 tier has Helms of Hammers, Spears & Swords, as well as Boots of Bladeturning/bluntblocking/boltblunting, and other similar examples. They may be mirrored over elements, exotics, or physical damage resistance/immuniy.
It hadn't occured to me to allow an item of +X to be upgraded to a +(X+1). I worry that this will push things too far, where a character only need find one (for example) caster belt of any variety, then be able to use it for the rset of the pre-LL journey. On the other hand there is still plenty of non-+X random loot to draw players. I'm unconvinced we need to go that far.
Desocupado, you mention eliminating loot splits altogether. I do think that is an important consideratoin - at low levels players don't play run by run, instead parties can keep going with old members leaving and new members joining along the way. There is never a good endpoint for a lootsplit like there is on an LL run, and banking itself is not usually done. By eliminating trash loot, and good use of rarity chests I hope that we can provide these convienient endpoints, make banking much easier by firstly reducing the amount of stuff there is to pick up, or by allowing even those groups which do not generally pick up loot to grab good set-rarity chests to provide something. Removing lootsplits altogether is interesting, but radical.
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Post by khaine on Jul 6, 2014 20:26:56 GMT
Set Loot
Here is the promised summary of Set Loot and what we want to consider when we make any. I will repeat, I don't think adding set loot should be our focus of attention. But it's a big topic and lot's of people are thinking about it and that's all to the good.
Set loot is sometihng very hard to get right. The core of our item system is random loot, so set items tread a fine line between being relevent themselves, and making random loot irrelevent. The other half of the divide is the manner in which these items are restricted - Random items are restricted by rarity, while set items are restricted by tags and the ability of a player to visit the tag-areas. Usually this means that set items are easier to acquire than random loot but often the sheer number of set items, and the difficulty of making repeat visits to a particular area mean that using a random item is simply easier for a player. Sometimes easier to acquire, other times easier to buy, sometimes to use and sometimes to learn about.
While I intend to talk about this in the context of Pre-LL loot, the best (and worst) case studies for us to learn about how to use this tool are found in LL areas, and since I've talked about intending to wipe almost all pre-ll set loot anyway, LL set loot pretty much has all the examples relevent to this discussion.
You also have no idea how happy it makes me that the text below has worked out to fit into 4 sections of 4 paragraphs.
POWER Quantitatively, set loot can either be worse, as good or better than the tier it's in. In LL areas better-than-ur gear is not used, though it may be appropriate in pre-LL areas. Gear that is as good as UR gear provides alternatives for those with extensive collections to use, they can make alternate gear set-ups possible or otherwise provide marginal improvements in the set-up of a player dedicated enough to invest time in finding the best gear. That category also performs the role for which the worse-than-ur loot is there for - to provide a bridge for players to improve their gear effectively and play competitively, while not discouraging the hunting down of elusive UR items.
UR-tier set loot suffers from underuse because using URs is easier. As you level if you use URs you don't have to update or re-evaluate your set-up everytime you get a new tag, you don't have to spend a lot of time learning the specifics of various items and you don't lose much power anyway. Since URs are (bar armour) available from level 40, most of these UR equivalents are more restricted than URs, assuming you already have a collection. Since the end-game has moved on from URs, it's just not that important to players to optimize their set-ups. Sub-UR tier items suffer worse, because for anyone with UR gear it becomes irrelevent, although it can still be of use for new players.
Qualitatively, set loot is an opportunity to make items unlike anything that URs offer. Spell slots, bonus feats, spell immunities and many more are properties that are too specific to put on the very general random loot. There are dozens of LL set items that provide benefits that no UR (or even BUR) loot can, although often with tradeoffs. Specialist items also belong here, with items that are only usable by one or two builds, or specialised items which are just too specific in role to be useful in many situations but may grant great power when used correctly.
Sometimes the specifics which these items provide only become really important in the hells and later, meaning often the items become obsolete before they become useful. More often though, while specialist items are still used, specialised items are not considered worth the hassle. While a player may see a weakness in their setup and desire (say) more elemental resistance to a particular elment, or a particualr set of misc imms (fear, confuse, etc), there is little to no chance that they know exactly where to go to get the best item to fill that need.
PURPOSE Making items that can be used is all very well, but Purpose is about making items that players will want to use. A players journey through the mod can be seen in terms of a series of key points. These could be key points in the plot, key tags, or key grinding areas. It can also be key transitions in gear - moving to ur, bur or whatever it is. For a caster, getting access to tia gear is a key stage in their development. The best set loot is a clear key point in any characters journey (eg, Dustbone weapons, Dachy gear (well, once it was), or an item more specific to a certain build).
To make the best of set loot in low levels, where engagement with the mod is at its lowest, we should then make areas with set loot which is highly focused, while also ensuring that a particular item focus is not split across many areas. Armour is a good exmple of this: while there is good set armour all over the mod there isn't a single place where you can be sure to get a set of good armour whatever type you use. Another example are the set elemental shields - one for each element which provide 25% imm with 40/- DR, as well as spell immunity from all the arcane spells of that element. Very good, but they are split across different runs so are hardly used at all.
While some might argue that the focus of Tiamat items is too broad, covering too many item slots and therefore reducing gear variety by making tia gear (for the most part) the de facto caster gear, this is far less of an issue at low levels. If we get to a place where the set loot from a particular area is considered good enough to become a staple for a particular class of builds then all the better. At least players will be making a decision, even it it isn't really a choice.
At its simplest, we want players to be able to talk about set loot from an area as a group, not as a collection of individual items. Dustbone has good weapons. Dachy has caster loot. Rona items have a lot of skill bonuses. Black Pyramid items have great elmental immunities. Other good properties, such as high-ac but simple items, phys Dres/Dimm, broad ability bonus coverage, spell immunities, or misc immunities also fit here even if they don't yet have a place. If a player has a need, they should know where to go to scratch it.
Location Dachy is one of the first LL runs, so casters immediately have access to the caster gear they'll need. However, because this caster gear is placed so early it won't be up to scratch in later LL runs. At low levels chracters pass through levels faster, and there is a greater range of levels. Where in the mod the host area is will be one of the determining factor in whether a particular set of set loot will be useful, and used.
If we want set loot that will be relevent to characters as they assault mana, as the hardest of the pre-LL areas, then those items will of course be strong enough not to fit in low-epic level areas. So we are faced with either duplicating a set of a particular set at different levels, or having large gaps in the coverage of these items. Pre-Epic areas may be both those areas in the least need of set loot, and those least suited to house it, but even ignoring those levels the issue remains.
For obvious reasons, the loot should feel appropriate for it's area. Dachy was imprisoned by a bunch of ancient spellcasters and they left a lot of their stuff behind, so it makes sense to find caster gear there. This is an important consideration, but by no means the most important: We don't have to give a type of set loot to an area just because it would fit nicely. There are probably many different types of items that would fit in any one area, and we should choose the right one to help us balance set loot across the mod as a whole.
What we do want is to spread out these item sets so that like-sets are neither too close nor too far apart, to ensure that the more important sets are the more accessible ones, and that these items are preferably introduced at times when they will be most useful. While this example doesn't fit in with item families so much, items which provide immunities to a particular effect should be introduced just before or while the player starts to encounter that effect.
Other Bound items: Dynneroth mentioned these in his first post, and Desocupado also mentioned them as an alternative to a cost in the swap shop. Auto-binding an item can level the field between new players and vets, but if there is a range of set loot can make getting the item you actually want problematic. On-use-binding doesn't level the field in the same way, but instead acts a sink to stop item proliferation. As such, I don't think it's particularly important to consider binding low level items as a rule, although there may be some special circumstances when it is appropriate.
The Equipment slot an item occupies is obviously important. Most LL runs try and have set loot in every category (to their detriment in my opinion), and certain properties are used more on certain slots, while certain slots make the best use of certain properties. Deflection AC for example is the least important AC, since you have a large number of items which can provide it. If you replace your UR amulet with a LL set +15 type, you lose AC. Casters usually only consider swapping their Helmet and Bracer slots on a regular basis, since the other (bar armour and shield) slots hold their tia caster gear.
While the static set loot may be useful for more specific/unique items, if we use a lot of set lists to provide items then we must take care in how we set up those lists. Dustbone for example has dozens of weapons, but that's okay because people run it a lot and it's a high level area. We can try and split (or combine in some cases) lists, as well as dropping multiple items from a list, or dropping from multiple lists. Weapons can be split by proficiencies, as can armors and so forth. If the barrier to getting an item is too high then players won't consider it a challenge to be beaten, but simply skip and ignore it.
The last thing I want to mention is adding Physical Dimm to armor at low levels. All LL armors have some proportional to their weight class and I think it makes sense to add it globally. [Armour] of Protection +X's generally fall into the rarity tier determined by how nwn handles item value by default, but if we can change item values individually this works out. In general low values of Dimm are of less value than low Dres values (the opposite is true with high values).
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Post by chirality on Jul 6, 2014 23:16:44 GMT
No one really does Dachy much anymore. The gear sucks vs. URs and vets who can navigate the maze/kill the boss quickly don't have much reason to farm the gear or get the tag early on (unless helping a newbie); conversely nubs who might stand to gain something from that crappy slot don't have an easy time navigating the maze or doing the run. Even removing immo requirement from Maze didn't result in lowbies farming Dachy for tag/super-early caster gear, as far as I've noticed. I think Dachy is one of the least-frequently-ran tags in the game, excluding Ely/Abos. It's probably close to/tied with Dulv and Loca for least-common LL tag to see shouted or ran, let alone farmed for gear (Loca and Dulv done a bit more usually due secrets, Loca even more due epode + wb ring). (Just mentioning this because I notice you reference Dachy frequently, but it's a bit outdated I think) I don't know what UR-tier set loot is. What does this mean? There's absolutely no lack of popularity for UR gear, even at the highest levels in the game, thanks to randomization (and then aug shop) allowing for some fabulous items. In particular, UR caster staves tend to be at least as, if not moreso, popular than Tia (and hands-down more valued than aforementioned crap Dachy), because with augs + randomization you can get ridiculous amounts of high-level (7-9, obviously 9 is the main goal) slots, or just "decent" slots on something with insane added properties. Along these lines, it's true that you admit "for the most part" when claiming Tia gear is the defacto, but it's moreso only true for toons that don't have other options, and/or when applied to certain gear slots; if there exists a UR equivalent slot that can be uberly-randomized/auged, it tends to be more popular amongst vets (especially after ultralame tia gear nerf which unfortunately resulted in only making UR gear MORE desirable). Amulets tend to be neither UR nor tia amongst vets/pros, since for each class there's usually a BUR option worn instead, such as seer for ploders and droods (or loca ammy before 60 for druid), pharaoh for mages, eramus for non-asmo shield-user wizard. Boots are one of the rare exceptions to abyss loot sucking, and since the abyss caster boots are rather nice, these are quite popular. I understand the abyss-loot-having population these days is rather low, but most nubs like styxwalkers a lot. I guess for those without either, tia boots are surely popular, but anyway, just trying to explain a bit of the "current state of affairs", and yes, this lategame "once you're rich" loot dynamics is very important since it governs the expectations and pleasures of players once they finally do get rich (and being bored/dissatisfied with capstone loot is a serious issue for vets, who then resort to the endless chase for even-more-uber random gear/augs to pimp them out, which in turn makes power creep just look even worse, and makes everyone else look/feel weak and poor). Overall it seems like you're analysis is a bit outdated. (No offense) For instance BP loot is total trash these days, and the value or popularity is a far cry from the assumption when you say "has great elemental immunities". URs are amazingly better. Most people don't even bother to loot the boss drops. The "elemental shields" (I assume by this you mean the ones like from myco, hive, dulv?) you reference are total crap and I've never seen anyone even use one. They're just a joke. At one time I had assumed they could be useful to low-powered players with an interest in specially gearing up for some certain thing, but it's not very useful, especially at BUR level. Before that, the lack of various other useful things on these shields tends to make +5/10 ele resist not worth using (+5/10 vs. what you'd have anyway from other set gear + random loot). Rather than using gear such as Dachy or BP as a reference or guideline for pre-LL "set loot", you should understand that most LL set loot, with exceptions due overpowered or useful weird things, is pretty useless in today's climate. I'm not sure deflection AC is the least useful AC type (if I understand your meaning? I may not). Is there even such a thing? If anything, it'd be dodge, since haste allows cap to be reached easily, and lacking cap is only an issue under penalties, which generally are ameliorated with np by UEF or other less-popular buffs. Well, it is on LL set loot, for sure--because randomization allowed 17 which is higher than most set loot, and now it even allows 18, which in fact tends to provide a +1 ac boost for most non-selfbuff/non-asmo tagged toons. As for armor, I'd have to disagree that there's good set armor all over the mod. Like most set loot, it generally sucks (with rare or at least uncommon exceptions). Randomized gear just blows it out of the water, and even popularity of caster set armors has seriously declined in favor of fist wrap (and "new" bur wrap of raphael). I guess what I'm trying to say is that basing any new lowbie gear structure from the pathetic and outdated state of LL set loot affairs wouldn't be a good idea. I refuse to derail again, so I'll just say that LL set loot needs to be fixed badly (if you do some forum searches you'll discover a few threads where this has been discussed, but it's just low-priority, now more than ever, but that doesn't mean it's not more-or-less universally acknowledged that eventually it needs re-tailoring). Anyway, for your project I'd avoid really paying any attention at all to LL set loot I still don't really understand the point of removing existing lowbie set gear and replacing it with new set gear which we would hope is better (but that's quite a daunting concept, and of course it would lose integrity over time, just like LL set loot), but that said, I support your desire and work I guess. Frankly I would like to see random loot become more prevalent in lowbie zones, especially that which is most desirable and (vice versa) hardest to find, like R weaps and the caster gear you mentioned in above posts. Unfortunately no one likes sifting through endless crap randoms, since we do that in LL+ play anyway, but more chances for stuff that's actually useful as a lowbie would be really nice, without needing to literally farm appropriate zones (gaobin etc for 35s and so forth) to find stuff that doesn't suck. I also really like the idea of adding more options/better stuff to the shops. I know earlier I was very sarcastic about "who cares" in regards to lowbie shop gear, but that was mainly to be taken "in relation to" the overall "lowbie project". If we're starting from assumption of "yes it will be done" then shops is fine. However, I still think that there's literally SO MUCH lowbie set gear that surely it would be less overhead to simply re-edit these items and improve them, rather than delete them and make new ones in their stead? It doesn't make sense to me, since "item replacement auto update" script (or whatever( seems already in place and working fine, whereas, what exactly would you propose to do with all existing copies of the "old" crappy set/shop gear? Just delete it all from everyone's toons and banks? Seems less efficient and less pretty solution than the (admittedly-time-consuming) task of literally going down the list of set gear and tweaking each one on a case basis. Anyway, the item swap idea is interesting but seems fraught with peril, and seems like a poor substitution for simply making the stuff we'd want to swap for easier to get in the first place. Also, KE had a good point/concern. For LL+ stuff, absolutely not, as much as we'd like to; for your example of lowbie belts, yeah that'd be cool with me, but the problem is that such a mechanic sounds kind of difficult to code, since we're talking random loot and not set loot, which I imagine would tremendously (or at least decently) complicate the engineering. However, that does lead into a nice idea for solving the issue of huge overabundance of bad/mediocre random gear across the game (which in turn is primary reason for most people wanting to "remove" loot splits", since all we can do is sell it for gold (which has thereby helped devalue gold). I *would* like to see some way to trade in a bunch of unwanted random gear for even just 1 "legit" one that you're after. Of course that would have quite an impact on the level/understanding of the grind that we've long become accustomed to. In the end this is some extremely delicate machinery to fiddle with, and consequences could be very unpleasant for the economy and playerbase impact/future coherency if something went wrong.
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Post by khaine on Jul 7, 2014 1:29:21 GMT
I mention dachy a lot, and for very good reason. Yes, I know it's terrible, it's been terrible for a long time. That's pretty irrevlevent. Theres a few things that could be done to solve it, from giving it greater bonuses the more items you wear, to simply buffing it. But I'm not really interested in that right now. It's been outdated long, long ago. But the ideas behind dachy gear are still the most solid out there. I don't use it as an example of good set loot, but as set loot that obeys very specific guidelines which are a prerequisite but not by themselves sufficient to create good set loot.
By ur-tier I mean of a quality with unrandomised ur gear. Sure, UR gear now has a much higher ceiling, but that baseline is key to understanding the quality difference between Rare, LLSet, UR, Hellset and BUR gear, which is key for understanding how low level set loot will interact with low level random loot.
You've pointed out a number of reasons why my analysis is 'outdated' but I want to point you to the beginning of my post again, where I say that I'm talking about this in the context of pre-LL areas, using LL set loot only as examples. As such, most of what you mention simply becomes irrelevent: The fact that Tia gear is not the defacto caster gear anymore, the terribleness of Pyramid or Dachy gear, or the uselessness of the elemental shields I mention. Yes that's all true, but it doesn't really impact on set loot in pre-ll areas. These items all share in character level with much higher tier items - bur, xr and set loot from advanced areas, with the endgame situation making players exploit the random system to the max. None of that applies at low levels. People don't have huge stocks of optimised level 20-25 random gear. The set loot of a level 15-20 area doesn't have to compete with set loot from areas intended for much more powerful characters.
The reason I cited deflection AC as the least useful is because you could use, say, a cloak with +1 deflection AC on a toon in the Abyss. Because you have so many other items that can provide that AC elsewhere. If you have an amulet with +1 Natural AC, you're down at least 15 AC, probably more.
In the context of areas which do not overlap with the endgame, players will mostly not be using the 'god-like' randomised loot they do at the endgame. Instead, they will be using pretty average randomised loot. It is to this concept of average random loot that I have compared this set loot, because that is what is relevent in terms of discussing pre-LL areas. This is what leads me to say there is plenty of good set loot in LL level - there really really is. As in, there are plenty of armours of very similiar power to unrandomised/average randomised UR armours.
You say that basing ideas for set loot on LL set loot is probably a bad idea considering how outdated and bad it is. Please reread my previous post - I'm not holding any of it up as examples of great set loot, I'm not gaining inspiration from, trying to transplant or otherwise copy any of it. I'm using it to illustrate times and places where certain principles have been upheld, and when they are not. I talk about those elemental shield because while they *are* part of an item set like I keep banging on about, by being spread across areas they lose all benefit from that. Whether those shields are good or not is irrelevent!
What with my wanting to remove all old set loot, and here discussing new loot, I can see why you wonder why I think it's appropriate to take this apparantly work-intensive path rather than just fixing the old loot. Well, a number of reasons.
Firstly, I don't actually intend to add new loot at the same time as removing the old loot. I want to purge all that old loot, and make random loot a staple. Later on, perhaps adding set loot back in would be good, but as I say in the very first line I don't think this should be a focus, I'm just talking about it because it's been a topic of discussion. If we discuss adding any such loot, I want us to do so being aware of the factors I've talked about above.
Next, removing all the old loot should not be as difficult as you seem to imagine. I certainly hope that it won't come to going through, area by area, container by container, removing all that loot. Instead I hope to use the datamining scripts I've mentioned previously to find all of it.
Third, improving that old loot would not be as simple as you make it sound. Balancing these items would require all sorts of detailed knowledge, from the state of existing loot to the power of players and the difficulty of host areas. There is also a mass, a huge mass of existing set loot - most of it needs to go, one way or another. Also one thing making current set loot bad is not just that it's weak, but that it is unknown and unknowable. That point is what most of my last post has been about addressing. Lastly, the existing loot has plenty of loot in useless roles, while there are many important roles which are completely missed: any new loot that conforms to the guidelines I've discussed will not only be far less numerous than existing gear, it will be a difference not just in scale, but in kind. I doubt that there are many situations where existing loot *could* be overhauled to confrom to these guidelines.
As for what to do with all the remaining copies of the existing set loot? Absolutely nothing. It's terrible. If players insist on using it, then firstly its a nice small reward for vet playersr, but more importantly maybe that item wasn't so bad and deserves to be re-introduced. The rest of it, the garbage, probably isn't being kept anyway, and if there are any people who get a kick out of having useless loot no-one else has then all power to them.
You expressed concern that this new loot would be better at all, and that even if it was it was power creep would erode that in time. Well, the purpose of new set loot would mostly to be easier to use, not stronger. Again and again I talk about wanting to make it easy for a player to know where to go to get the particular sort of item they need. As for power creep? Well, we're talking about pre-LL areas. Do you seriously think that the introduction of powerful XR gear would make a player decide that that (e.g.) Zhentarihm set loot just isn't worth it? As for randomisation, the issue of players using the very best randomised gear isn't really an issue at low levels. If anyone cares enough to invest all that time for almost no gain at low levels, is that a problem? I believe you yourself pointed out that the main issue at low levels is that players don't care that much anyway.
Now, back to the swap shop idea: I'd like to once again confirm that this is not intended to cover LL levels, UR or LL set loot. I'm glad you like the principle, but it may not have as big an effect on reducing the uselessness of the general trash loot as you'd like. Although on a positive note, I don't think it will be nearly as difficult to code as you imagine. Because the items which can be swapped all share a property 'blueprint', randomisations to those properties can be very easily mirrored, while extra randomisations and augments are even easier to convert.
To summarise: pre-LL set loot does not suffer the same problems as LL set loot does. If you want to examine what's good and bad about current set loot (in this case for the purpose of learning good and bad practices to produce good set loot for low level areas), then you need to recognize the effect that the proximity of the endgame to these areas has on these items, and how to seperate those effects from the items themselves.
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Post by chirality on Jul 7, 2014 2:42:09 GMT
Ok, I guess I don't understand the gist of it then.
I think basically all set loot is "conceptually" really cool and well-intended. I'm not sure what the deal is with these stringent guidelines. What's the point of saying "it's really well-done in concept but it fails to deliver numbers-wise"? I feel kind of confused what the entire thing is all about. Are you saying you want to use Dachy loot as a conceptual basis for lowbie set loot? I guess the goal is to relate different lowbie zones with LL runs and have set loot drop from each zone that is supposed to match up with some theme as appropriate to the tag boss or something? Corpse Lord drops some "PM-ish" items for example...is that what you're getting at? The loot sucks but conceptually it makes sense...? So my suggestion was to improve this. I thought your whole project was to introduce new set loot, but what I'm saying is wouldn't it be cooler to improve the stuff that does exist if/when necessary? To use the Corpse Lord drops as example again--that stuff is worthless, even @ that low level (and this is totally independent of newb/vet status or anything else, it just plain lacks anything useful). Archmage Elanna drops the Shade Spike dagger, which is a cool item conceptually I guess (and lines up with her being a sorceress), and this item is actually really nice and tasty for sorcs @ that level.
I guess I'm either reading too much "between the lines" or not correctly reading what is in the lines...I see you place a very high premium and priority on conceptualization and rigid rules and guidelines, but I'm not clear on where you're going with it. As far as I can tell, this already was the idea behind most set loot in the game, whether lowbie or LL (elemental shields, silence imm rings, KD helmets, you name it). This stuff, when needed, should just be improved, like a stun imm helm from hive seems cool except it's totally devoid of other useful attributes. From the last response, it seems like you're saying you want to leave all the old loot as it is but yet add more, which should be theorized to suit a master scheme? The problem is that the lowbie areas don't really follow any scheme and it's very idiosyncratic--there's many examples of loot that is designed to help you better survive that area, such as the "dragon slayer" bastard sword and a couple "dragon slayer" shields and stuff. (I think set loot in general should be based upon this assumption, and it seems to be, for the most part--it's just that for the most part it isn't very good). But there's also an overwhelming amount of "monster types" and "map flavors" and the idea of inventing something to match everything is either a bit overwhelming, or redundant, or both. I mean the Half-Orc Bandit Chief drops the KD imm helm, which is great preparation for proceeding into Kuo-Toa with grease KD and monk (Monitor) KD. But surely you don't intend to create a different piece of loot, let alone multiple pieces, for each eventuality? Mostly it already exists--fire imm% armor from Lava King, stuff like that?
I guess I see you repeatedly reference and emphasize this conceptual basis for loot, but I don't understand why (for example) Dachy loot is put on a pedestal as being conceptually more brilliant than anything else--it's all pretty well-done...what makes Dachy loot more attractive to your thought process than other loot? What are the examples of "not so conceptually perfect" set loot?
I'm more interested in the numbers...there's thousands of loots in the game, and the ones that suck, still retain a great theory, name, flavor, etc. The ones that are just confusing or totally random (Cloven Hooves boots? wtf is this for?) should be removed. Make lowbie weaps and caster stuff less of a hassle to acquire. Improve bad items. Remove meaningless ones. Improve bad set loot. Create new "brother/sister" gear for items that already exist, and are really nice (zhent sorc staff), yet which lack examples for other classes (dragon slayer bsword only useable by CoT? Why?). Stuff like this...I guess these are what I'm looking forward to. What exactly is your goal? I'm not clear on that.
Random tangent, speaking of dachy and caster gear: One thing I never understood was why small caster gear received fewer slots than staffs. What's the point of this? It seems to serve only as punishment for Small races if used s casters. I love the dachy Codex (in fact the book is so cool I wish I could use it instead of a staff all the time), or the styg Orb, but why is it "worse" than staffs?
Final thought: I think you place too much emphasis on set loot at a time when randomization has obviated much of it. Randomization is a far cooler concept and a far better system for continually forcing time investment, and allows us to have more freedom (or illusion thereof) when "controlling our own destinies". Set loot is lame because it can't be customized, and there's no slot machine to add a lottery feel. Now don't think I'm saying set loot is a bad thing, or should be removed, or anything like that (I think the 2 together is a great relationship, just one that needs a bit more counseling to bring more bliss to the home). If the idea is to try "fixing" the "damage" randomization has dealt to the set loot system, then I would caution that it's impossible, and shouldn't be even taken seriously. Improving some, when necessary (most of it), and yes, even nerfing some when necessary (very few examples), is an option, but some OP set loot would be viewed as far less "imbalanced" if not for a lack of comparable gear for competing builds/classes.
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Post by khaine on Jul 7, 2014 14:45:40 GMT
That is the core of it. I feel like I've covered this numberous times, but I guess I haven't been clear. I think it's more important that this loot obeys these guidelines than actually being competative with random loot. If it doesn't, then it just gets lost. There are thousands of items, and no-one knows about or cares about these items. Even if a player does know about and possess a particular piece of set loot and has it stashed away in a bank account, they will not be able to retrieve it when they need it. Everything about these guidelines is about making set loot which players can actually use and learn about. Even if existing loot was upgraded, I still think players simply wouldn't give a darn.
As I said, making items thematically appropriate is not a big concern. Corpse lord dropping PMish loot fits thematically, but contradicts everything else I've said. The focus is too narrow - while PMs might gain use from loot here, no-one else will. It pays no attention to the mod as a whole - PMs don't need specific gear at this low level although they might later. As it is, because no attention has been payed to Location its pretty much useless no matter how great it is. The only saving grace to the corpse lord loot is that it does have *some* sort of focus, although it adheres to it poorly. The Shade Spike on the other hand is the perfect example of a good item which disobeys all these rules. It is a single item that can contribute to a single class at a single point. It is not enough to tell a caster to go to Zhents for 'sorc gear', and no other caster can really get any good gear there. It's well known and therefore used, but I would still get rid of it. How right an item is 'lore wise' is of least importance, although it is a consideration.
I'd also like to clarify: I'm not working on adding set loot. I do however want to remove almost all existing set/static loot from the pre-LL mod. I do not want to add set loot. But if someone was to do so, then I fear that they would do what you've suggested - simply try and upgrade poor gear where they find it, and add it a bunch of of other exotic items to fill niches that they see.
Why is dachy loot good? Because it's part of a set. It's easy to learn and know about. You don't need to see a cleric cloak to know you can get a cleric cloak there. You can tell someone looking for caster gear 'go here'. Just like dustbone for weapons, except dustbone is still relevent to people. It's a general focus. Desert gear (not that anyone would notice anymore) has lots of items which have ur-tier AC, but none of the bells and whistles - it's a way for players to quickly improve AC if they need to, without spending lots of time trying to find rare random loot.
As far as set loot vs random loot goes, I feel your argument is based on the late game situation, where players exploit the randomisation system to the max (I'm pretty sure I've used those exact words before). At low levels players don't spend the same sort of time getting top tier random loot. They bulldoze through the mod, only stopping at key points. All of this work on set loot would help prevent lengthy boring lootsplits, and prevent players from spending as long rummaging round bankchests as they do actually playing. I think your approach would have the opposite effect. You say randomisation is 'a far better system for continually forcing time investment'. Well theres the problem, we don't want to force players to spend more time getting good loot at low levels. They already have that option but they don't take it. We want to make it simpler for players to improve their gear.
However it seems like some examples would be best. These are just off the top of my head. to explain things. They're not serious suggestions. Zhentarim - gets a list of good armour, drops 3. Abandoned Temple - has a bunch of weapons The Web - has a bunch of good elemental DR drops. Clothing with 20/- all, shields/rings or amulets with 40/- to one. Gaobin - caster gear shadow elves - gear wtih really high ability bonuses Farm - phys dr gear Morgue/Tower ruins - Exotic DR With perhaps one or two secondary lists per area, for more specialised loot. There would not be much loot, but it would be very, very easy to learn where to go to get gear of a certain variety.
This approach let's us very simply work out a 'master scheme' as you put it, then work down into the details. If we work from the details up, I think the lack of direction in that project would make it very difficult to make any sort of improvement, although I think my approach is better for other reasons as well.
Perhaps my view that we're better of starting anew is best explainged with a metaphor. Imagine you're trying to fix up an old house. You want to keep as much as possible, the old floorboards, the old wall render, the pointing, the skirtings, doors and so forth. You think it will save time (HAH). It's when you find damp in the wall and the floor, find crumbling pointing on the exterior, find the some of the joists are rotted so bad they're not actually supported at all (forcing you to replace a bunch of floorboards, by the way), and that most of the woodwork is riddled with woodworm. Worse, if you want to keep the old fixtures you're going have to fix like-for-like. And as it happens, while those old builders may have liked to do the window fittings with redwood, nowadays we only use hardwood and softwood, and we use standardised sizes while they worked by eye. Every task you take on will take twice as long and be twice as expensive, and you'll find yourself cursing yourself that you didn't simply gut it and start over.
I guess working with code at least the dead cat inexplicably under the floor will at least be figurative.
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Post by KnightErrant on Jul 7, 2014 16:21:16 GMT
khaine I feel like I've covered this numberous times, but I guess I haven't been clear. Not trying to be rude but you've posted WALLS of text that seem to be quite vague, to me anyway...it sounds like you want all the items that are currently deemed "useable" by low level toons to be all put in separate areas so that players can go to the area's knowing what's there to get to update their gear set ups as they go thru the mod...and all be direct upgrades of each other like the Xanthene Cloak set ? Zhentarim - gets a list of good armour, drops 3. Abandoned Temple - has a bunch of weapons The Web - has a bunch of good elemental DR drops. Clothing with 20/- all, shields/rings or amulets with 40/- to one. Gaobin - caster gear shadow elves - gear wtih really high ability bonuses Farm - phys dr gear Morgue/Tower ruins - Exotic DR With perhaps one or two secondary lists per area, for more specialised loot. There would not be much loot, but it would be very, very easy to learn where to go to get gear of a certain variety. Now we have the problem of what's the definition of "good" or "really high"... Example: I use this armor a lot leveling lowbies... wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Prismatic_Dragon_Armor are we putting armor better than this in Zhents ? or better than this ? wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Full-Plate_of_the_Quickblood ....if it's nicer than these then it would seem to be a bit of a power bump, while also making the HoK armors obsolete... wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Elytron_of_Isis wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Humbaba%27s_Cruel_Heart Abandoned Temple - has a bunch of weapons.... is a level 35+ area iirc, aree you suggesting we put all the level 35 weapons here ? or all the level 29 ones ? make a whole new set somewhere in between ? (Ack!) The Web - has a bunch of good elemental DR drops. Clothing with 20/- all, shields/rings or amulets with 40/- to one.... like this wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Xanthene_Garments or better ? I shall stop now before this becomes unreadable.... :-) It seems like a lot of the stuff you want to see is already in the mod but you just want it all to be located in one spot instead of just randomly dropping wherever it happens to drop due to the games current lootdrop scripts. .02 KE.
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Post by khaine on Jul 7, 2014 17:10:39 GMT
I just did a quick wordcout and apparantly have written 10 thousand words in this thread already (200+ uses of 'loot'), so point taken. If it's any consolation, when I'm writing up some ideas instead of replying to someone, I spend far longer rereading and cutting out bits than I do writing it.
I have a very specific power level in mind for these items, using the same guidelines as I think LL set loot used. It should be just under top tier random loot. So if an item is supposed to give elemental dr it should be a bit weaker than the appropriate Xanthene Cloak. As regards weapons... well, I'm not sure. I don't want to add more, and don't want to remove them from the random lists.
In many ways I *do* want to take what is essentially available across the mod and centralise it in single locations. This is because while that loot is available to players through the random loot system, they usually don't bother. A typical tier has about 40-50 rare items, and you have about a one in six chance of an item being random. Meaning you can expect to pick up 300 items in a tier before you're likely to get any given item you want. Sicne most players don't collect lowbie loot, and don't store most of it between characters, a player is very unlikely (imo) to be making the most (or even much) of the potential in the random loot system.
By adding in this loot at what is essentially an uncommon rarity, players who wish to min-max across all eight pre-ll rarity tiers can still do so, but those who don't will find it easy to reach a reasonable level. That is the main focus of the types of loot I've mentioned. It also balances out the gaps and idiosyncracies of existing loot. Other more unique items are there as set loot to avoid them clogging up the random loot lists and making every random item rarer. I do not want a player to be able to do well with only set loot, but I want them to be able to survive.
I have had other thoughts on how to actually make nice set loot, using sets with bonuses the more items you wear (i.e 10/- +5/- per extra item from set worn, to max 30/- (+20)), or creating them with weaknesses appropriate for their strengths. But I don't really want to make any of this loot right now.
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Post by chirality on Jul 7, 2014 21:46:52 GMT
At this point I honestly have to wonder how much of this is based on pure imagination and how much is actually based upon you playing the game. "Do you even loot bro?" Excuse the trollacious behavior but, despite seeing you ingame recently, I have to admit that it's interesting and even vaguely threatening that you suddenly show up out of the blue with the most grandiose scheme I've ever seen (even tops Deso's ideas ). I see you were playing this game "when I was in diapers" but I have to wonder exactly how much physical contact your toons have had with all the lowbie set loot that you're so eager to trash. PLEASE don't take this as some sort of vendetta or as me focusing on your play experience or whatever (I didn't even mean to harp so much on "outdated" thoughts in my last post), it's just that from what I'm reading now, my brain is basically saying "alert! alert! wtf is this guy trying to do to the game". You've nearly topped me in terms of "giant posts full of BS that endlessly circle around without actually offering something concrete and concise". No offense meant, and if anything, I surely identify/empathize with you (and sympathize for you); but as a fairly "prolific" poster of BS proposals and edits myself, and after a large amount of close and often fairly heated contact with Funky regarding it, I have to say that I imagine (not to speak for him) if you expect him to even read your posts, let alone take your proposals seriously, you should re-invent your strategy (read: snip your posts into extremely short and succinct packets which take small time to read and small time to digest). Worse, this project seems to be growing more complicated, complex, and confounding with each new post. At first I thought it was merely a communication issue but now I'm starting to think that I actually kind of seriously dislike your ideas, because they're not realistic and extremely dismissive of the existing foundation. How is any of this supposed to be feasible, honestly? Now here I have to be very clear: I made some radical sweeping claims of my own that I didn't really consider fully (and as usual were stated with some hyperbole and exaggeration). When I said "lowbie set loot is trash, just remove it all" or "that old PoA stuff is all ridiculous, just get rid of it", I thought it was kind of funny. But when I read you saying the same things, I'm like "whoa bro...whoa". I have to retract such claims and state very simply that I was quite wrong, and due to not thinking over the implications, I'll repeat that it's a) wayyyyyy too much work to conceive and b) it's just plain bad, considering the alternative of working with what we have already. I think you need to do some groundwork, and by that I don't mean studying ancient tables or "datamining scripts". I mean you need to make some toons to level up from 1-40, visiting each map and looting each spot, to discover what actually exists in the game, and get some perspective. And yes, I really do mean loot each spot, or at least go through the mod (which I suppose Funky grant access to) in toolset and literally look at every last lowbie item. If that seems like to much work for you, then there's already an issue, because you're not going to get that information any other way, and completely flushing+recreating the lowbie loot shouldn't be something that's reduced down to statistical hypotheses and assumptions/educated guesses based upon theory that sprang forth from your own mind. After you are familiar with all these hundreds of items, then yes, it's perfectly correct and desirable to use your opinion-formulated statistics and theory and concepts to make judgment and try planning the future. But not before; because those of us who really do run through this content so many times (and so frequently/recently that it tends to be burned into our brains) that we have it all memorized, aren't relying on datamining or theorycrafting when we judge what loot is good and what loot is bad and what set item drops in what container on what map. Am I a super nerd? Yeah, sure. Do I have a bit more obsessive knowledge and memory than the average player? Yeah, obviously, but I'm not the only one *by far* and the guys like KE (so far only other vet I've seen to actually attempt digesting and opining @ your posts) know the lowbie content at *least* as well or better than me, and you should consider carefully what exactly it is you're trying to persuade us to believe; so far I'm seeing (no offense, no offense!) something approaching the overwrought scheming of a mad scientist who doesn't like what he sees but is confident it'd be better once he gets his hands on it. (That's coming from a fellow mad scientist with plenty of overwrought schemes of his own; at any rate they generally tend to be received as overwrought to everyone else, but especially to "the Master" and he's the only one that matters) I also would recommend (as I did last post) taking some time to read some old threads, because this ground has been well-travelled over the years. Now I shall address some specifics which I didn't respond to yet: 1) so set items tread a fine line between being relevent themselves, and making random loot irrelevent. I'm really surprised at why you could even think this. There's a fine line, to be sure, and the 1st clause is correct, but there's certainly no fear of making random loot irrelevant. How could random loot be irrelevant? This leads me to believe you don't really understand the basic conceptions/implications/"real" consequences of the random loot system, let alone the "physical proof" of how ridiculously powerful random loot is as a system. "Do you even !randomize bro?" Really, this shows a very mistaken conception of the entire game, imho. 2) Usually this means that set items are easier to acquire than random loot but often the sheer number of set items, and the difficulty of making repeat visits to a particular area mean that using a random item is simply easier for a player. Again, what? No. You're attempting to make a comparison or whatever that simply doesn't exist. This is such an oversimplification that even if it wasn't blatantly wrong, it'd still be suspect. How can you claim that "random" vs "set" loot is competitive in difficulty to acquire? It's not even...I don't know what to say. The concluding thesis is so wrong and bizarre that I can't even really put forth the explication here. 3) UR-tier set loot suffers from underuse because using URs is easier. First, I'm still not sure you really provided a convincing answer to my question of "what does UR-tier set loot even mean", and I'd recommend to simply stop using that phrase and stop imagining that it's a meaningful description. Anyway, this is incorrect; it doesn't suffer from underuse because URs is "easier", it suffers from underuse because URs are *better*. I thought this was made clear in earlier posts but I guess not. 4) Qualitatively, set loot is an opportunity to make items unlike anything that URs offer. Spell slots, bonus feats, spell immunities and many more are properties that are too specific to put on the very general random loot. There are dozens of LL set items that provide benefits that no UR (or even BUR) loot can, although often with tradeoffs. Yet again, what? This is imagined and has no basis on reality. There is absolutely no difference between the "unique properties" available on set loot vs (pre-randomized) URs. Ironically you mention spell immunities, but some of the most popular and best examples of spell imm to be found are on UR gear: plode armor and StF armor (and even more ironically, there's at least 1 set armor granting plode imm, just to showcase that your delineation is groundless). Random loot isn't "very general"; I still think you are missing some very important and very basic understanding of randomized loot. Keep in mind that before randomization it WAS set loot and the only difference between what's now "random loot" vs "set loot" is that what we call "set loot" required boss tags to wear, as opposed to merely a level requirement. As for the final sentence, this is touching on truth but still falls astray: there's no difference between the "benefits" provided by "LL set loot" and randomized gear. Finally, and most importantly, which puts the entire thing into view as a joke, randomized loot can ATTAIN THROUGH RANDOMIZATION virtually any special power or ability, with the exception of the specially-coded things like +DC on a spell; of course, these exist equally across "random loot" even before randomization; I mentioned this example earlier but consider the Styg sorc/wiz 1-6 DC robes, or the Loca +drown DC ammy, versus the BUR "random loot" fist wrap or wrap of raphael or pendant of the seer. Again, I honestly feel like you are just totally missing the picture here, which is what scares me. 5) Sometimes the specifics which these items provide only become really important in the hells and later, meaning often the items become obsolete before they become useful. What? The only example I can think of is +SP items. What are you even getting at here? 6) While a player may see a weakness in their setup and desire (say) more elemental resistance to a particular elment, or a particualr set of misc imms (fear, confuse, etc), there is little to no chance that they know exactly where to go to get the best item to fill that need. Again, such a confident claim, yet completely lacking basis, let alone accuracy. What are you talking about? We know exactly where to find whatever we need; that's the whole point of playing the game. Add in randomization providing unexpected solutions to these problems, and this claim is remarkably incorrect. You must understand that, completely contrary to your claim, we in fact often rely on surprise awesome randoms to give "free" "patches" to "holes in gear", like stun imm or fear imm or a million other things added onto an item, or uber imm%, or resist, or soak, or , ffs where do I stop? And that's not even touching upon the ability to augment an item with an immunity or whatever other bonus needed. This just blows me out of the water. 7) the existing loot has plenty of loot in useless roles, while there are many important roles which are completely missed: any new loot that conforms to the guidelines I've discussed will not only be far less numerous than existing gear, it will be a difference not just in scale, but in kind. I doubt that there are many situations where existing loot *could* be overhauled to confrom to these guidelines. There really aren't many "important roles which are completely missed"; what's lacking is equal proliferation amongst classes of the same roles. As for your guidelines, heh, you're right that existing loot can't be overhauled to conform to your guidelines, but that's not a reflection of the existing loot being problematic--it's an indication that your guidelines are not only completely fictitious but also mystifying and ridiculous. 8) As for what to do with all the remaining copies of the existing set loot? Absolutely nothing. It's terrible. If players insist on using it, then firstly its a nice small reward for vet playersr, but more importantly maybe that item wasn't so bad and deserves to be re-introduced. The rest of it, the garbage, probably isn't being kept anyway, and if there are any people who get a kick out of having useless loot no-one else has then all power to them. This is a shocker, and I'm not sure how I missed it before. What? "Remaining copies"? This doesn't even make sense. This implies to me that you lack fundamental understanding of game(s) itself in terms of continuity and rationality. You're honestly saying you want this loot to simply no longer drop, yet "existing copies" just remain in the game? Are you serious? "bro...do you even dev?" You can't just "stop" items dropping and yet have "old" ones still exist... 9) You say randomisation is 'a far better system for continually forcing time investment'. Well theres the problem, we don't want to force players to spend more time getting good loot at low levels. They already have that option but they don't take it. We want to make it simpler for players to improve their gear. Uh, no, you completely miss the point I was making, thus making it obvious that you likewise (and importantly) completely miss the point of why randomization was such a great innovation (despite all the butthurt that came with it). It's not about "forcing" anyone to do anything, first of all; sorry to have used the word "force" since you took it far too literally. It's about the *option* to eternally grind for better stuff. Time investment in the game itself, a good thing--not time investment "required" to get "decent stuff". No one forces players to spend time getting good loot at low levels; you're seriously misconstruing both that comment I made, as well as the overall state of lowbie loot. We are "forced" to spend time, usually, without some luck, or friends, or buying from auction, certain things we "want" but certainly they're luxuries not necessities for the most part; exceptions such as I mentioned earlier like Rweaps or caster gear aren't required, and weapons are required "only" if you're a nonselfbuff tank trying to do certain tags without a caster. This is completely off base. Finally, as for "they have the option but don't use it", that's totally wrong, and is yet another example of the serious disconnect you have with the actual state of affairs in the game--you're not even outdated or out of touch, you're just plain out of control. We *do* take it--we "take" it every time we pop a random loot spot! And most people have TONS of super nice lowbie randomized gear. You probably would be blown out of your seat to see some of the lowbie-usable egos and oc/dc etc stuff that people find "for free" without farming at all--this all comes without lifting a finger, just by progressing through the tags and finding loot and getting lucky. In conclusion, I have to say with much regret that after going back to read your posts again, I'm really astounded. It was a huge mistake to have missed these glaring issues before. All I can say is that you should give this whole thing a rest, play regularly for another 8-10 months, and then go back and read your own stuff before trying to continue it. I really hope Funky doesn't do something as foolish as allowing you to handle a copy of the mod, even if it's for your own personal perusal, because the way you picture this mod being played and developed is just absolutely unbelievable. You're off in a different dimension, a different reality. Don't take this the wrong way, because I am really overjoyed to see someone with this much energy and desire to help HG, but your conceptions and theories and extremely willful agenda is just categorically ridiculous. Cheers I'm not sure what else I can do for you, although if you carefully read my "quote war" section you should be off to a great start; you have the tools to understand this game and be a productive resource, but I'm afraid that until you commit yourself to a very serious and deep period of "playtesting" and learning the mod and the players as they are today, you will be hitting a brick wall each time you try to advance this eyebrow-raising agenda.
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Post by desocupado on Jul 8, 2014 1:38:35 GMT
A quote war and i have no part in it? Times have changed.
Sincerely, I'd propose better pre-LL shops, than drop/loot based based progression. It'd would have perfect synergy with the gold drop system.
My reasoning is the following:
1 - People shouldn't have to "farm" pre-LL areas, because these items will become obsolete quite fast. 2 - Player power varies too much (from solo play x party) to not-yet-qualified quasiclass x low magic melee x caster - this is specially true for AB 3 - Shops provide the intended progression without error
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Post by khaine on Jul 8, 2014 5:03:12 GMT
Hmm, it appears I have misjudged matters. I was under the impression that Pre-LL loot was barely used, and just ignored. It appears that was incorrect. While deleting all of it would not be as much work as you think, it clearly would have a much bigger impact that I'd thought. I certainly do intend to play more, and have been playing for a good length of time before I start trying to make any very big changes (if only to make sure I want to invest). However, I want to remind you that only my first point contained any serious suggestions, and was billed as 'initial thoughts'. The discussion about set loot is entirely about that - discussion.
As such, considering what you've said I would change the second proposal:
2. Make a list of all important quest items. Sollicit a list of items that players acutally like (I.e. the crit imm ring). Then wipe out all other static loot.
to making a blacklist of items that should be removed, instead of making a whitelist of items to be kept then wiping the rest. Set loot? Again, I don't want to add set loot, although I didn't say that in my first post, but waited till I actually discussed set loot.
(1) Set loot can and would make random loot irrelevent if players did not see the need to invest time in creating the more powerful random gear set ups. This is exactly what I thought the situation was at low levels.
(2) I did not say claim that random vs set loot is competitive in difficulty to acquire. I claimed that random items are easier to use. Going to rarely-visited areas to tag or farm loot can be problematic, while any immortal can use that random gear. If you store random items seperately from set gear like I do, then you probably see a lot more of any are far more familiar with random loo too. I'm far better acquainted with random loot than I am with set loot, so it's my go-to.
(3) Despite what you say, I still think 'UR-tier' set loot is a great description. It describes any loot which is similiar in power level to an unrandomised UR, or a UR with average randomisation. While this may not seem relevent to anyone with stocks of well-randomised gear, it certainly is relevent to anyone who does not. In that case, it still reflects the average power of the URs they will recieve. It just so happens that players in that situation (new players) are in a vast minority.
(4) While randomisation does allow access to many of the unique properties (although not all, like bonus attacks, water breathing, or the ability to stand up when kd'ed a few times a day), we come to the same impasse. I'm not discussing the potential of UR gear, but the average UR gear which is relevent to to people playing without stocks of items. Much set loot has the porpose of being a bridge for players to cope with the sharp increase in difficulty moving to LL areas. Inevtitably, it's going to be useless for vets. However, it's only bad set loot if it's useless for both vets *and* new players.
(5) Items that are obsolete before they are useful: Specifically I'm thinking of items like the Hive Bloodsilk Belt. Perhaps it is used, despite my reservations. But it provides immunity to festering wounds - it's just that it's still a UR-equivalent item (as I insist on referring to them). I could not see myself wearing that in Hell, because it would not make up for the cost of not wearing a (average or better) bur, or even ur. Of course, now on reflection perhaps Festering can be found in the Hive or elsewhere...
(6) I do not count 'a bankchest' as knowing where to go for an item to cover a particular need. In my experience when I wanted an item with a specific property at a certain (pre-ll) level I could rarely find the right item, and asking for suggestions usually netted me items too high or low above my level to be really useful. Still, this centrally comes down to how players treat loot at low levels. Apparantly, they've been giving it more care that I thought.
(7) Well, I agree that they are fictitious, and could see mystifying at a stretch. But ridiculous? If anything, it's boring. It uses formulaic item creation to ensure item availability. Still, point taken.
(8) I have absolutely no idea why items no longer dropping but still being in-game would be a big problem. I don't see any real potential for abuse, or the proliferation of bugs. Of course, it would be a problem if the removed items had any value - but I said at the time I didn't think they did. If they did, as you've persuaded me, then I wouldn't want to remove them. I'm not saying if you're saying it shouldn't be done, or couldn't be done. It certainly could, but I'm willing to admit that perhaps it shouldn't be done, if you gave me good reason.
(9) You too appear to have missed my point. Set loot would not try to replace random loot, while random loot would not 'obviate' set loot, as you put it. Well randomised loot would certainly make this sort of set loot irrelevent for anyone with great gear, but that's not its target audience. It's about reducing the gap between new players and vets whithout restricting the ceiling for vets. Again, I can admit that I seem out of touch here.
To talk generally about set loot: I think one of its core roles is in providing a stepping stone for new players to increase their gear quality quickly, without taking away the superiority of random loot. This is a key reason why I use the term 'UR-equivalent', or generally talk about items being equivalent to a top tier random item (i.e rares in pre-ll). It doesn't reflect the power of the average random item a vet uses, but it does reflect the average power of a random item than a new player first starts to recieve.
The other sort of random loot provides very specific properties, more usually items designed for a particular quasiclass or prestige class, or other niche build. I have far less issue with these not being widespread in pre-LLs, and don't think it reflects the core problems with low level loot, namely that despite the very high ceiling in gear potential that high level gear is hard to get to without lots of investment in time and knowledge. Reducing that gap, and making that knowledge easier to acquire is what those initial suggestions are about.
Overal, I can see your point in my being disconnected from the current state of affairs. This is exactly why I made such a delineation between intiial suggestions, and commentary and discussion around the topic. It's also why I haven't actually made any of the 'proposals' which I keep talking about. While you claim my ideas are crazy, you only appear to have problems with those regarding set & static loot (and specifically those resulting from my misgivings about how much players care about low levels). Removing nwn default loot, 'useless' (and I mean unequivocally useless) quest/misc items and random shops are still great ideas, with swap shops & consumable random lists being cool but more out there.
You don't need to worry about me running riot trying to force crazy ideas on people. Firstly, because I'm bringing them here into public discussion so we can weed out the crazies, and also because I think I've been realistic about what someone without recent practical knowledge of the mod can do. The most important steps in 'fixing' the mod are actually rebalancing areas. That's something I really want to do, but know darn well that I just don't have the experience to do.
I don't think I ever attended a loot split before level 40 in my previous gaming here (apart from with irl friends). While it may seem very strange for someone to believe that players at low levels all but ignore the gear they wear, it surely always seemed that way to me, and that impression was reinforced with the comments from the pre-LL boss thread. There, the impression was that vets go through a small range of powelevelling areas, take the tag-cap as the recommended level, and generally rush through the mod. Fallenwizardgave the example of never having been into the second level of the mino maze as part of HG. You are, in fact, despite this lengthy discussion, the first person to say that they think the existing set loot can be useful, although Kaezar also appears to hold that position. I may be out of touch, but surely you can see why I was so confident in this view, given the discussion so far.
[edit] In hindsight, however sure I was of pre-LL loot being bad, I was too hasty to suggest removing content. Theres no need for us to go cutting bits off. [/edit]
Oh, one last thing. I'm not really a vet myself, I just played here a lot a long time ago. And as far as going through every loot drop checking over every item? Yeah, doing that is my prime reason for hating nwn default loot, heheh. I just normally go !anon when I do.
With that out of the way, do you have any other problems with those ideas, other than set loot shouldn't be binned?
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Post by khaine on Jul 8, 2014 17:27:47 GMT
Now the less positive side of my response. Forgive me for the double post and the time delay, I had to attend to real life matters. This is in response to chirality's last post, and Chirality I hope you take this in it's intended spirit despite the sometimes acerbic comments, just as I took yours. I appreciate that you have taken a lot of time with all your replies, and appear to have paid particular care to your latest post. The entirety of my suggestions on this topic are in the first post I make. Every single other post, with the exception of the one on set loot, attempts to explain them further when questioned or to respond to replies. Here, the ideas are surmised in a single line each then explained further with a paragraph each. The majority of the rest of what I've written is in response to you, not dealing with specific issues with my ideas but instead dealing with why I think changes are needed at all, or the overall goals I have. Those responses which deal with specific issues are short, while those that respond to your problems with me actually tackling any of this stuff at all are long, because they try and deal with every issue you raise and then consolidate my position to make things clearer. Go back and check if you doubt me. Note that no single point in that quote war is actually about any of my suggestions. Throughout your last point you've made a number of statements I take issue with: - You claim that my suggestions are "the most grandiose scheme" you've ever seen. However it boils down to 6 points, none of which are particularly huge. You seem to be confusing what are suggestions and what is just discussion. Which of those 6 remaining points is really the evil-Disney-Vizier-level scheming you are thinking of?
- "Giant posts full of BS that endlessly circle around without offering something concrete and concise" - I made my full suggestions in the first post. The set loot post suggests guidelines, but itself explains that I don't intend to add set loot. It's included because it's promised, and on topic for the original post, as well as to spark discussion. All those posts which reply to comments about specific suggestions are short and to the point. Where they get long and BS-y is where you've begun to talk about the general idea of changing low level loot, or my underlying intentions. Since these all follow the same format of following your posts point for point, then summarizing my position, I'm not sure I'm entirely to blame for this. Either way, the concrete and concise suggestions are in the very first post I make.
- "This project seems to be growing more complicated and complex and confounding with each post". In my first post I've laid out everything I intended to do. In the third, in a single paragraph I laid out what I'd do and in what order to get this done. Not "realistic"? Not "feasible"? I've said exactly what should be done to bring this about. Is there a specific step you think cannot be done?
- This theory-crafting approach is already being taken only as an approach in lieu of actual practical experience. The 'ancient tables' I'm using for loot are ones that I've been backing up by, yes, actually going through loot tier by tier, rarity by rarity and area by area. In the meantime I've been crowd-sourcing experience in these forums in order to get the ball rolling on this topic as soon as possible. If you recall, I was biding my time, but this topic came up and I felt compelled to join in before I was ready. As it happens I had some notes on loot as a footnote which informed my first post, while the Set Loot post was off the top of my head.
- My assertion that low level loot was not used was a mistake, for sure. But to use it as evidence of 'something approaching the scheming of a mad scientist' is unfair. While you now admit that you know the mod very well, the impression given previously has been one of overwhelming lack of interest in the low levels ("The inherent problem is expecting people to take this stuff seriously"). Despite all this wealth of knowledge, certainly it has not been forthcoming. As for the sudden realisation of this issue on your part on the rereading of my posts? Well it's a central pillar of the suggestion that static loot should be removed. You seem to have arrived at the conclusion that this is an opinion I held in a very roundabout manner.
- Apparently you 'missed these glaring issues before' when reading my posts. Despite that, none of your comments or problems with what I've said actually involve any of my suggestions. You finally, (after 10,000 words on my part) suggest that not all set loot is terrible, although you don't put that as a response to any of my actual suggestions. These 'glaring' issues then seem to come down to one other point: my stance on set loot vs randomised loot. Other than that, it's just the repeated talk that going over the pre-LL mod is a waste of time and that going in with a view to new players is misguided (to paraphrase a few thousand words, crude I know). At the end, you want me to wait almost another year before trying anything more. Another year, after 10 years of almost no progress in the Pre-LL mod, after which every problem will have become worse, the playerbase will be weaker, and DM time even more scarce.
- Again and again you've been you've been taking my suggestions, especially those on set loot, in the context of LL areas.
- 1: Misunderstanding of the use of examples of LL set loot to explain guidelines. Those examples show how POWER, PURPOSE and LOCATION influence item design. Yet you completely ignore these ideas, apparently becoming mystified that there are aspects to item design other than how relevant to end-game characters they are.
- 2: Asserting that I misunderstand the randomisation system, because I use the idea of 'average' URs. Yes, as you say the "lategame "once you're rich" loot dynamics" are very important. But it's not really relevant if we're not talking about improving gear for those players. I'm not suggesting how to make LL set loot useful for vets, we were talking about pre-LL set loot, far from the endgame. Your claim that 'randomization has obviated much of [set loot]" strikes to core of your endgame-centric viewpoint. Randomization only obviates much of the set players for those 'once you're rich' players. You refuse to acknowledge any way of playing the game as important apart from your own.
- 3: The riposte that (In '3)' of your post) 'URs are 'better' than set loot, not 'easier'', that you believe you made clear in earlier posts. You made it clear that they were better because of randomisation. But that just means that an individual UR can be far more powerful than a piece of set loot. However, that top tier of random loot is not really used by new players - instead they use 'average' URs. In the context of vets, set loot is not used because it is worse than randomised loot. As it SHOULD be. In the context of new/less gear wealthy players, this loot is not used because it is confusing and unknown. Making good set loot does not just (or even primarily) mean making set loot that vets all want to use.
- 4: Your point that unique properties on set loot does not make them different from URs/random loot because randomisation can give those properties (Your point '4)'). Again, only in the context of experienced players with masses of loot. While I did mention some unique properties that don't appear in randomisation in the post above, here I want to say that it's not about the players with mass hordes of loot! These properties *are* too specific to put on general random loot, for the most part. For players who do not have a wealth of equipment stored up set loot is a way to get these properties! You claim I'm missing the picture. Please consider that consideration of players like you may not be in this picture at all.
- 5: Claims that players know where to find whatever you need ('6)'). Firstly, I suppose you have a point in terms of low levels. At first I was taken with your initial position ("Expecting people to take low levels seriously is your mistake"), but I see I was wrong. But you again claim that randomisation solves the problems I suggest because you can fill any hole or gap with an appropriately randomised item. This is not a reliable way to get items: it's still not a way to get the right item when you need it without already having had it, or getting very lucky indeed! Once again your entire viewpoint is based on being a vet with access to all the gear they want, with existing and extensive knowledge of the mod.
- 6: In your final point ('9)') you say that I miss why randomisation was so great - that it has the *option* to eternally grind for better stuff. This is then used to claim that since I disagree that this system solves all our problems, I am not just outdated or out of touch, but out of control. That comes back my first point here, but I don't see it that way: I haven't been suggesting wild changes, or suggesting adding strange set loot. No added items, areas or creatures are suggested. Once again, none of this randomised gear can provide the stepping stones that new players need to keep paces with vets! In many ways this huge power available from random loot is *why* better set loot is required. Your solution for new players to try and get close to vets who have spent a long time farming great gear is to go out and farm themselves. Set loot still means that that farming can't be avoided, but until they do they're not left in the dust.
- 7: All in all as regards random loot & Legendary Levels - you claim that I am completely missing the point. Well yes, it would appear that way if we were discussing how to make set loot useful for vets. However I am not. My suggestions try not only to clean up the mods items, but to address the big, and growing gap between new players and vets. Not everything is about vets. And please don't say that it's not worth considering new players because we don't get any anymore. The tautology of that mindset (which has been around as long as I have) is breathtaking. I have many friends who I would love to play HG with - they like multiplayer games like this, they like older games, then like the subject matter and they like the approach. But I could never recommend HG, because only the promise of the endgame drags players through the pre-LL mod anymore. If I were to come across this game again without either the bullheadedness of youth or the glasses of nostalgia there is no way I would want to slog through it.
In the end, I object to being told to 'give it a rest for another 8-10 months' because my comments are apparently so for off base. As far as I can see I've made one false assumption, and fairly understandably. You seem to want me to stop because you don't like the scope of my changes, and fear that my misunderstandings would change the mod for the worse due mostly to my disconnect. But please, read and reply to my suggestions. Not to how you perceive my dreams, but to the things I suggested. As I said, each one is summarised with one line, then explained in one paragraph. Yet you haven't directly responded to any of them. If you want me to stop making suggestions until I've been playing again for 8-10 months, then I would like to request you don't play any HG for the same timelength before commenting on mine, and instead play a bunch of other RPGs, multiplayer and singleplayer, or even tabletops, all with an eye for game design, especially regarding Plot, World Building, Combat Design and Loot. Mix in some other games for good measure - all without playing HG. I feel like all your suggestions come from the suffocating view of a long-term player, firstly with no concept of how things could and should be, and how badly some of the same mechanics are handled by NWN & HG in particular. Secondly, with an in-built assumption that the engagement of the mod with you and people like you is the only important consideration moving forwards. My suggestions have been neat and orderly just as you suggest they should be - One sentence and one paragraph each. Our own meandering conversation has been more chaotic, and almost none of it on the topic of those suggestions. I don't intend to make any changes to specific items, areas or monsters specifically because of my lack of recent experience, and intend to wait to regain that experience. Just like you suggest. I have also spent many many long hours trawling through our drunken monk, thoughts and ideas and server update boards, to get a sense of history and what has been suggested in the past - I've even gone through most every post from the relevant dates in the public AW forums. Just like you suggest. I even reread my posts before each reply. Considering I've already been taking all the steps you suggest, do you think instead of juding the 'grandiose schemes' which I've only mentioned in passing (and have acknowledged I don't yet feel comfortable tackling or publishing yet), you could take my suggestions on their own merit? [edit] When we began this discussion, I said I welcomed your antagonism towards my ideas because it would give me an opportunity to fix them. Well, you've pointed out a flaw in my logic, and I've taken it into account and changed my suggestions to account for it, see above post. I see no reason why this should imply it's not yet the time to begin with my suggestions. If anything, it vindicated the path I've taken.[/edit]
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Post by fallenwizard on Jul 8, 2014 19:07:01 GMT
Khaine, few things that has risen to my mind here. This is very unlogical post as I wrote stuff as it came to my mind.
When we're talking about vets, we talk about players who has all the "good bits" of set items alrdy sitting in their bank, getting them as they level up from there, ignoring the loot all together, because at best, you earn, say 100mill from 1 to 40, if you spend an hour or two using !randomize on every non-set loot and actually bother picking it up etc. Mean while that same 100mill can be obtained in 45mins doing endgame run, with a chance of something worth billions. Not worth the time to pick up loot, let alone split it. This however doesnt mean that it isnt used.
Flag of Ascension for example, like every caster wears it from lvl 15 onwards (swap on the UR one at 21 if they have one). Then there are lvl 4 fear imm belt, lvl 9 death imm belt, lvl 8 mind imm helm etc. Those are very important in many occasions, but you only need to get that item once. Also what I mentioned earlier in one of the threats, there's also wide arsenal of useful lowbie items to be found. However, hing here is, that lvls 1-22 you can easily cope with shop gear. There isnt really much room for improvement, since you basicly max out AC on boots/armor/shield/ammy +1def and then use other 2 def and rings for misc imm/ability boost. It is very plain and simple. Few maps, if you go severaly underlevelled, you cant rely on AC and therefor need resists, which you cant buy and have to find. I personaly really like this current option.
As I also mentioned earlier, IMO nothing should be done to tags 1-25, well, other than maybe remove some of them on tag list. Set loots for under 25 are very very restricted in terms of what they can have. See Were's table for how low value items they are. There could be room for some minor changes in the itemization here. Like, upgrade for boots of speed for lvlss 15 and 20, how ever, there are alrdy some in shops and in mod, if you just know where to look for.
But what I'd like is to have the current non used areas made interesting for people to visit them. I mean, as I talked about mino lvl2, there is simply no reason to go there. Crappy exp/loot, no tag/quest - no reason to venture there.
But what I'd really want to see, is some development on tags 30-40, as well as items for those levels (30-39). Just logged on my lvl 30 levellingbot that can solo all tags 30-38 with ease. It uses lvl 20 belt and staff (both shop bought) 2x pyra rings (lvl 22) randomized torch (lvl 22) lvl 20 cloak (set drop) lvl 21 bracers (set drop) lvl 28ammy (set drop) lvl 29 armor (set drop) and as final pieces randomized boots/helm (lvl 27/28).
This is what kind of saddens me, there just isnt compareble items for lvl 30 to use. There is no direct updrage from lvl 20 shop bought belt into lvl 30 set loot that is worth using.
Also, this is where AC on items seems to cap (+10 for lvl 25?). Getting +14 deflection AC without randomization I think comes first time available at Lolth, then +15 at immo loot. Ofcourse, all vets equip their UR's for +16 (or +17) at lvl 40, which is once again why PreLL loot splits are often nonexistant. I remember some +13 deflection items for lvl 35, but that if that is with what you have to do the lvl 40 tags with, you're lacking like 20 AC vs vet. On top of all the nice stats/resist/Dimms that UR's provide. Have a lvl 40 vet running a sorc at Drows, dodge's 97,5% of attacks, newbie sorc dodges 50% (via conceal), newb then is forced to make concentration checks, fails them, is forced to heal/hide etc. Vet sorc just powers through. Ofcourse there has to be carrot for farming stuff, not saying everything should be given for free. But sadly it goes pretty much so that you get dragged to lvl 50'ish on your first char, by then you've enough money to use market to buy ur's and start contributing to party, other than being the loothoarder vacuuming remains. Some (smart newbs) who reads forums and listens the right people, start here as that caster, even thou they get demolished on their first LL's, but once they get items, they can start solo farming for much faster cash and gear improvement. What this has to do with PreLL? As it has been pointed out, no one wants to farm prell's for items, because you only use them for 5 lvls and then throw them away. So what I'm trying to say is coming back to having NPC that sells reasonably priced items up to lvl 35, which is where you can wear good items, just tiny notch down from UR's.
Now, one might ask, does there need to be upgrade if the items alrdy are so strong that you cant die?
Some of the problems are, that items comes from higher lvl areas. You need to go to lvl 35-40 area to find lvl 28 ammy or lvl 40 dragon drops lvl 29 armor, same goes for the flag, it drops 40+ as well as pyra rings. Bracers are also from lvl 35+ area. I'd like to see these, currently existing and totaly useable/viable set items to be moved on more level appropriate place. So when a lvl 30 kills lvl 30 tag, he'd get lvl 30 loot instead of lvl 22 stuff...
Now, back to vets having all the stuff alrdy... I'd ask that when was last time when any of the vets died more than twice before Lolth/immo (and ruination/axilar, these are often rolling 1 on ruin/plode). For vets it is more of a matter of "can I kill X tag alone with decent efficiency or do I need another player to help with it"
Newbs instead have to go into next area and first see how strong they hit and can they survive or should they run back out. There is totaly different PoV on somewhat forgotten term "have's and have not's". Others can (and usually will) power through PreLL's with ease. Others strugle and spend hours, if not days/weeks to find aid for certain tags because they either lack gear to tank them or ability to kill them. Frustrating I can imagine. This starts to kick in post 30, and is once again, the range that I'd like to see adjusted.
How? I dont have straight answers. Partly with what KC is doing in adjusting bosses, however, I fear that his goal is set more to make them chalenging for vets and therefor widening the powercap with newbs. another would be, expanding merchants to sell items up to lvl 35'ish. This is however, something that'd require lot of time invested to make the items and I dont mean the type of items that are currently sold on that shop behind Rips, out of 50? (non weapon items) I have ever used only 2-3 of them. They are just too wide spread with stats which makes them often worse than same level flat armor items, say for lvl 21 +7deflection cloak is far better than some +5ac with bunch of nonsence on it.
Also, keep in mind that there always needs to be junk items. You sell junk without hesitation of "would this be useful someday". It is flat out income. You just need to pick it out and take it to vendor. That is one of the basic mechanics of persistant world. Unless you propose, that every lootpile is turned into pre set gold, somewhat like it is at farm, 10k for kill, set loots to be popped. Personaly I'd HATE to see entire mod to be like that. Trash loot is and should be #1 income for people untill endgame, when player to player market starts to kick in. Base nwn items are good example of this, luckily there arent many maps that frequently drops these, since they cap at lvl 20? (means less gold). Also, the fact that base nwn items cant be !randomize'd, so they dont offer the possibility for something uber to come out of them. HG non set item that sells for 5k can turn into 500k with !randomize at lvl 10, that is pretty sick improvement, which base nwn items lack. But, there are still few (thou only handful) of base nwn items are actually useful (nat AC amulets, guiding light belts to name few). Still enough to let them stay in mod, or if removed from loots, then added into merchants.
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Post by kingcamaro on Jul 9, 2014 10:34:52 GMT
Partly with what KC is doing in adjusting bosses, however, I fear that his goal is set more to make them chalenging for vets and therefor widening the powercap with newbs. My goal with these is moreso to adjust them to their tag level. as someone who only plays hardcore now since randomization came in, every new toon is a noob starting with nothing, unable to access my high end gear until lvl 41. as a slight bonus, im converting their custom hides and other custom equipment that doesnt drop into code. once that has been done, I can ask about making their drops more level appropriate. My opinion is that the pre-ll tags should be challenging for a noob and be fairly easy for a vet that has a bank of items to work with, not challenging for a vet and extremely difficult for a noob.
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