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Post by condude on Jul 10, 2014 4:51:39 GMT
I, for one, don't have any banks in HC until immo. I play with storebought/found gear the entire way up. The advantages my new toons have is a) subby, and b) experience, and those are both powerful. It's much closer to being a noob than anything non-HC. Since it's been so long, I'll eagerly snap up the bait. Mmm, tasty! I *specifically* referred to KC (and explicitly addressed the entire post to him), so unless it wasn't obvious enough, allow me to clarify: I wasn't talking to you, or about you, and don't care what you do, and there's really no need to justify how hardcore you are to me. Since you mention it though, and since despite multiple instances of intentionally bickering with me in the past (regardless of admin displeasure) you yet again felt the need to derail/troll me, I'll gladly offer a response: Ironically, the advantages you mention (and which you can't help but brag as being "powerful") in fact line up precisely with the point I was making (despite your concluding sentence). You've got it backwards: "powerful subraces" (congrats btw, we're all proud of you!) and "powerful experience" ( jury's still out on this one ) don't make you close AT ALL to being a noob, let alone CLOSER to being a noob than "anything non-HC". They are 2 of the *primary differences* between a vet and a new player, and without question, experience regardless of gear/subraces is exactly what defines the difference. Nub =/= noob, and we all know the difference, and the endless self-praise by a few -HC- players is something else which we all know for what it is. In one single post you manage to simultaneously diss normal mode players as being distanced from new players; flatter yourself and yearn for flattery from others (which, after years of RIP shouts and "wow congratz!" kudos from normal mode players, you learned was easily-available for anyone with -HC- label); and you claim to be relevant to new players. Triple fail. Feel free to try again with the trollbait in another few months, but that's surely enough interaction between us to last for quite a while I misphrased that last sentence slightly. I meant more along the lines of "Closer to being a noob than I would be while playing non-HC" I looked it over, made some changes to make it less antagonistic, and posted it, not noticing how it could be interpreted. The penultimate sentence was agreeing with your point to a small extent. Stop slamming HC wherever you can, please, many of us enjoy playing how we like, and don't want it constantly under attack. That being said, I'm sorry for derailing this thread as far as I already have, and this will be my last post in this thread. I hope you have the courtesy of helping me nip this argument at the bud.
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Post by khaine on Jul 10, 2014 4:59:39 GMT
In reply to chiralitya) Set weapons still not being effective without GMW. I can easily believe you that this is the case. However from looking at the Tag Boss Soaks I can see that soaks appear to be much lower than the GMW of a level appropriate caster, so this leaves space for a sub-GMW enhancement on set weapons that can still bypass most soaks. The megadamage aspect of the weapons I am not very interested in, since the exploitation of a specific vunerability is not nearly as important as in the lategame. You also use the example of a non-selfbuff tank as one of the only situations where sometimes a ll set might be the best weapon. Luckily that is precisely the sort of person these pre-LL weapons would be for. b) Those LL sets don't appear to fit in a group well (or even perform well). I can see that including Abyss weapons was a mistake. The rest of them split into two: The +11 6212 2d8's and +12 8d12 2d10's. Thus they all share Purpose & Power, and while they don't drop in the same place, they drop in the same manner in smaller lists in order to satisfy Location. This isn't perfect, but if all these areas dropped all the weapons getting the one you want would be a nightmare. In a later point you show I don't mention all the LL sets, and you're right. I just briefly checked the Special Weapons page and didn't check properties carefully, only using the headers. So I assumed that Toy/Loca/Dulv/Hive weapons didn't have +Enh, when they do and all fit into the two categories I mentioned above. c) The enhancement bonus is useless anyway. Saying that the +Enh is useless might be true in LL levels, but it won't be in Pre-LLs for the reasons in a). Just like in my examples for the Set Loot guidelines, following the guidelines doesn't make them good but gives them the potential to be. Those weapons have a dual purpose - +Enh and megadamage, and you have quite succesfully argued that they don't do either well. However, the Purpose of providing +Enh for solo/unbuffers to bypass soak in Pre-LL's can be met more easily, and we don't need the second purpose. They also conform to the guidelines in Power, but fail to conform in terms of Location, which I'll get to. Level 35 & 50 weapons do not actually have enhancement bonuses. They have attack bonuses, which are different and do not bypass soak at all (The 29s have neither). DB, dis and random weapons are the only ones without this Enhancement, and are also the only craftable ones and generally are the most powerful if I understand things right. So those are the "random (or lacking +enh)" weapons. They are weapons that are random loot, or lack enhancement bonuses (or both for Level 5/20/29's). A weak nonbuff solo tank is who we want to make weapons in Pre-LL for, since those are the people these weapons are aimed at. Now, the 'by proficencies' 'splitting' that I mentioned, Sorry if that was unclear. By that I mean that instead of chopping up the 'list of all weapons' randomly into several smaller 'list of items that will drop from [area]', they are chopped by based on the proficiency you need to wield them. I.e all martial weapons would be from the same area, while all simple ones are from somewhere else. This is done so that you don't have a single area which drops all the weapons from a big list, like Dustbone. In that situation you have to run that area an awful lot before you see the item you want. It does not mean being able to swap the weapons in a swap shop. Splitting by proficiency makes the lists smaller while not creating the same situation you describe for Set LL weapons: Confusing and horrid (I do agree). Since these Pre-LL weapons would not be megadamage weapons either, with those two fixes we solve your first two problems with LL set weapons (in general), for the purposes of Pre-LL set weapons. The third will (I believe) be less of a problem at low levels - low level areas can be closer in difficulty than LL runs, while the fourth also becomes moot, since there are no healers in pre-LL areas. Of course, that doesn't fix the LL set loot, but we can avoid their problems with Pre-LL sets. In the end, I would prefer to use the simpler tools of improving level 5 weaposn tier & power, Set rarity weapon chests, swap shops and consumable lists to tackle this issue, but set weapons would certainly do the job too. And don't worry about 'malacious sarcasm'. I made those two big seperate posts because I wanted to acknowledge that you had some good points and the style was simply that: your style, your idiom. The second was to more robustly defend my ideas for anyone who misses the joke, .
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Post by KnightErrant on Jul 10, 2014 8:11:55 GMT
khaine Level 35 & 50 weapons do not actually have enhancement bonuses. They have attack bonuses, which are different and do not bypass soak at all (The 29s have neither). DB, dis and random weapons are the only ones without this Enhancement, and are also the only craftable ones and generally are the most powerful if I understand things right. So those are the "random (or lacking +enh)" weapons. They are weapons that are random loot, or lack enhancement bonuses (or both for Level 5/20/29's). A weak nonbuff solo tank is who we want to make weapons in Pre-LL for, since those are the people these weapons are aimed at. NWN Wiki seems to disagree... nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_bonus_(item_property) and nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_reductionKE.
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Post by khaine on Jul 10, 2014 8:36:18 GMT
Oh my, you're quite right. I was absolutely certain on that point too, I thought that was the key difference between them. Ah well. Luckily, going back over what I wrote it doesn't seem like that mistake has any really serious consequences for my argument, although now I can see why there was such confusion about me talking about the random (and non +Enh) weapons.
The attack bonus weapons are... L35: +7 L50: +13 Dis: +11 Hell: +15
While the rest have enhancement... MoaD: +9 Sissy/Myco/Toy: +11 Other: +12
Even if this doesn't affect what I think should be done, clearly suggesting that the LL set weapons are set apart from the randoms/+AB ones because they bypass soak without GMW is wrong. This favours the more solid approach of Set Rarity Chests, especially those just dropping weapons, used in conjunction with changing L5 weapns (and maybe more), swap shops and consumables, over the generally more awkward set pre-LL weapon approach.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Jul 10, 2014 13:07:48 GMT
khaine Level 35 & 50 weapons do not actually have enhancement bonuses. They have attack bonuses, which are different and do not bypass soak at all (The 29s have neither). DB, dis and random weapons are the only ones without this Enhancement, and are also the only craftable ones and generally are the most powerful if I understand things right. So those are the "random (or lacking +enh)" weapons. They are weapons that are random loot, or lack enhancement bonuses (or both for Level 5/20/29's). A weak nonbuff solo tank is who we want to make weapons in Pre-LL for, since those are the people these weapons are aimed at. NWN Wiki seems to disagree... nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_bonus_(item_property) and nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_reductionKE. The wiki is right. Attack bonus serves to increase attack bonus and bypass soak. The difference between enhancement and attack bonus as item properties is only in regards to bonus damage. Bonus damage is, of course, pretty significant, but attack bonus is sufficient at least for bypassing soak.
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Post by fallenwizard on Jul 10, 2014 16:44:29 GMT
Okey, I'll chip in on the weapon talk.
Attack bonus (AB* for future references) = Enchantment bonus (EB) without flat damage increase, as per Semner (and wiki says), AB is a ton cheaper than EB, like really, huge difference.
There is no, i mean NO need to worry about any of the lvl 1-20 tag monsters being immune or too hard for non selfbuff tanks. However, that tank player needs to be smart enough to realise that he needs to buy weapons with EB/AB (AB ones are almost non existant). Lvl 15 gets +5 weapon and can easily just do corpselord with it, especialy if you happen to be strenght based and buy a 2hand wep (yes, even without focus on it). Dexter, slightly harder, but still more than doable. Problem is that people think that having 2d6 fire on their weapon is better than +5EB. 2-12 fire vs 5phys/ab. They miss 25% more and deal average 1 damage more when they hit. But hey, you get glow on the wep with d6 and up! Corpse lord is totaly doable at lvl 15 solo, non self buff tank (if you take beho > rat king > corpse lord route).
First one that I recall giving hard time for solo tank is Dracolich, he was pretty damn hard to hit, without cheesing. However, it is, once again lvl 30 where you see the weapons starts being lackluster, among with other items. By lvl 30 you actually could start using weapons with some decent stats (not being wasted on having +7AB AND +7EB on them). Infact, tanks, IMHO, shouldn't get access on weapon buffs in town. Instead, there should be more weapons that gives you basic increase in power in shop. +10EB (not sure if it'd be lvl 30 or what, havent ever toyed with such) for solo and then when you DO have buffers, you swap your rare 29 and get EB on it from others. Those lvl 29 weps are insanely powerful vs non resist enemy if you get them even half buffed. Well, you might then ask that how much non resist enemies there are, surprisingly many, they just aint bosses.
Then lvl 30+ tag bosses for solo tanks are totaly another story and all who have tryed it, knows the pita they are (not all, but like 80% of them).
So, in short for weapons:
lvl 1-22 you're totaly fine with plain straight +EB bonus from Merchant's emporium. Period. lvl 30+ No weapon will be strong enough for you. Period.
Then somethings about AB:
If KC is planning to balance bosses for 3/4 bab class. Let's do some numbers what should MoC's AC look like: 15+5 BAB +7wep +5 feats +15 dex (18start +2sub + 7lvl ups + 1feat +12items = 40, 15mod) 47 AB. So 47/42/37/47, so if we want to have 50% hit chance... then MoC should have AC of ~52, she now has somewhere around 57AC. She is listed "fine" on KC's chart, apart maybe removing Edodge. Atm char with 53 AB and 4d12 exotic (with that 3/4 ab progress) cant kill her in 30mins. Having Edodge removed and rest stay, lvl 30 rog wont be able to kill her. She needs AC lowered by atleast 5, maybe more if Edodge stays AND regen removed. Even then, she'll be "i'll run there, start the fight and then go watch a movie" for solo tank to kill. It will be possible but so slow that you wont be watching it. Ofcourse, that is only case if you can back your self with enough regen to heal up her occasional 20's and not die before she does. Her AB is 46, so 66 for player AC, fairly easily acchieved, thou not granted.
(Edit, just finished killing her, 44mins with 4d12 exo/52ab, 4 attacks per round, imagine this with 2d6 or 2d8 exo)
Now, for vet's PoV, I think she is fine, especialy if that Edodge goes, maybe lower her phys Dres to 20 or so, while making sure she has +1/50 soak so evards/etc wont kill her.
There are plenty of other tags too that need more vulnerabilities added or at bare minimum have their regen removed. Just 5/hp regen is devastating when you're looking to deal 0-15 damage/round.
Unless ofcourse, the henchmen will he able to deal tons of exotic damage for long period of time. Then you can add about equal regen to that henchman damage, but only then. Which'd mean that henchman helps to tank and clear spawns, but no real help vs boss. Thou even then I'd opt against regen. I mean, that regen means nothing vs strong groups. But it is make or break for solo.
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Post by kingcamaro on Jul 10, 2014 17:16:11 GMT
That chart I threw up in the other post is something thats meant to be discussed, but it got taken off topic way too fast for much use to have come from it. just another reason ive not got far beyond the lvl 20 tags atm, though im going to start filling in more of them this week.
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Post by chirality on Jul 10, 2014 17:51:14 GMT
Level 35 & 50 weapons do not actually have enhancement bonuses. They have attack bonuses Quite correct, my mistake; forgot the 35s have only +attack not enhance. However 50s do actually have enhance. Anyway: khaine: Reasonable and positive response. kingcamaro: Sorry FunkySwerve: KC should be promoted to forum moderator privilege He's ancient, trustworthy, loyal, is now working on the mod, and could thereby police his own threads for this project in order to keep derailing/trolling from interrupting the actual issues at hand for discussion in his next thread (limiting feedback only to the work and not interesting-and-important-yet-tangential-debate) (yes, the obvious logical alternative of people like me simply refraining from derailing/trolling is just never gonna happen ) And anyway forums prolly could use +1 mod nowdays period
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 10, 2014 18:29:18 GMT
The wiki is right. Attack bonus serves to increase attack bonus and bypass soak. The difference between enhancement and attack bonus as item properties is only in regards to bonus damage. Bonus damage is, of course, pretty significant, but attack bonus is sufficient at least for bypassing soak. This is correct. The converse, that attack bonus does not serve to penetrate soak, is one of those old chestnuts that just doesn't want to die. Funky
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