Post by bazukar on Dec 5, 2014 13:19:49 GMT
I'd like to broach the subject of quarterstaves. I had taken a break when the issue came up before and the nerf went into effect, so I never had a chance to participate in the discussion. Rather than necroing a thread I thought we could start fresh.
Full disclosure: I have a 5x demi 5x prince/pelor staff monk. Though it is my favorite tank and the nerfs destroyed him, this actually isn't really focused on staff monks, though I will bring them up later.
From what I remember, the catalyst, or at least a major impetus of the Qstaff nerf was staffmaster damage. IIRC, there was a tia or shallow hells run where a staffmaster absolutely crushed the damage meters and the group was none too happy about the disparity. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember the melee in that group being dexers, shadowdancers or weapon master variants or older, weaker builds not very good for comparing to a well built 2h str damage dealer.
(for the record I wholeheartedly admit to, and agree that the original 2h damage/bonus across all classes was overpowered and needed to be tuned)
I feel that the tuning of 2h as a whole was definitely the right call, but that the Qstaff nerf went too far in the case of staffmasters, and might have been done with incomplete data. Allow me to explain.
During the heyday of 2h goodness there was much running of the abyss, a great place for str tanks with big crit ranges and 2h damage bonuses. The DTs ran many cycles during this time, and for several cycles there were three prominent tanks: myself on my staffmonk, greven on his 2h barbarian, and spcleezard on his staffmaster. By this time all of us were seasoned veterans of the abyss, knew the damage types, had all the gear and perfectly crafted weaponry needed and knew the spawns. On any given run the typical damage ranking would be greven, myself, then spcleezard. While that doesn't mean anything in and of itself, the actual damage breakdown and spread was not close.
On a melee/bludgeoning friendly run like GM or Azz 1-3 it might look something like this (numbers are not specifically correct, they are simply an illustration of spread: all screenies are on my old comp which is...slagged :x )
Greven 950,000
Bazukar 810,000
Spcleez 620,000
I bring up these numbers, these people and this spread because we were the highest damage melee characters for our respective classes (though a few people started to get really close after they experimented with our class combos) and some of the most knowledgeable regarding the abyss. Back then with all the crazy damage that staffmasters had, even when in the hands of one of the best staffies on the server, he was a distant third. This happened consistently, over many months. It was not an outlier, or anomaly. This was over more than 70 abyss runs and several hell cycles. The only place I was ever outdamaged/killed by a staffmaster was abos...for obvious reasons
As strange as it sounds, based on the above data, not only did 2h need a nerf, staffmasters needed a buff. It was something we discussed often at the time, but were unsure on how to fix.
I feel like this data was never put forth or considered at the time the Qstaff nerf was being debated. If I am incorrect, please correct me.
Why do I bring this up now?
I started to come back a few months ago and am now regularly playing on HG again. When I came back I found out about the 2h balancing and the Qstaff nerf. I understood the former, but was really bummed about the latter, and when I played the monk I cringed. But the real problem was the staffmasters. Recently we did an azz 1-3 with spcleezard on his staffy, and leid on his tank BFM. Over the course of the run it ended up being 355k~ to 340k~...the 2x, no prince win bfm tank outdamaged the 7x 5 prince win geared to the teeth staffmaster. Pretty sure there was at least a5+ level difference (turns out it was 12 levels) between the two as well. We were all pretty surprised to say the least. No disrespect to leid, he's a great builder and player, but this should not have been possible. Am I wrong?
As far as staffmonks go...well they don't. They are a dead archetype, in every sense of the word. A monk would be better off going 1h nunchuk and torch over Qstaff. It would give more damage/stats/imms and add an augable item slot. A dex fist monk would do the exact same damage as my staffmonk does now, (literally within 2 damage per hit) and a str variant would easily surpass him.
My possible solution, should you think with a 2h bonus staffmaster damage would be too high, is to not allow it to apply to their class specific damage, and only the base weapon damage. Or perhaps, in the specific case of Qstaves, as staffmonks can pump out huge numbers, only have the base and str damage of the weapon amplified, and not any weapon buffs.
It just seemed to me like the best was balanced against the least, and not its peers. I'd like to suggest a revisit to this issue, or at least request a brief discussion.
Thank you for your time.
Full disclosure: I have a 5x demi 5x prince/pelor staff monk. Though it is my favorite tank and the nerfs destroyed him, this actually isn't really focused on staff monks, though I will bring them up later.
From what I remember, the catalyst, or at least a major impetus of the Qstaff nerf was staffmaster damage. IIRC, there was a tia or shallow hells run where a staffmaster absolutely crushed the damage meters and the group was none too happy about the disparity. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember the melee in that group being dexers, shadowdancers or weapon master variants or older, weaker builds not very good for comparing to a well built 2h str damage dealer.
(for the record I wholeheartedly admit to, and agree that the original 2h damage/bonus across all classes was overpowered and needed to be tuned)
I feel that the tuning of 2h as a whole was definitely the right call, but that the Qstaff nerf went too far in the case of staffmasters, and might have been done with incomplete data. Allow me to explain.
During the heyday of 2h goodness there was much running of the abyss, a great place for str tanks with big crit ranges and 2h damage bonuses. The DTs ran many cycles during this time, and for several cycles there were three prominent tanks: myself on my staffmonk, greven on his 2h barbarian, and spcleezard on his staffmaster. By this time all of us were seasoned veterans of the abyss, knew the damage types, had all the gear and perfectly crafted weaponry needed and knew the spawns. On any given run the typical damage ranking would be greven, myself, then spcleezard. While that doesn't mean anything in and of itself, the actual damage breakdown and spread was not close.
On a melee/bludgeoning friendly run like GM or Azz 1-3 it might look something like this (numbers are not specifically correct, they are simply an illustration of spread: all screenies are on my old comp which is...slagged :x )
Greven 950,000
Bazukar 810,000
Spcleez 620,000
I bring up these numbers, these people and this spread because we were the highest damage melee characters for our respective classes (though a few people started to get really close after they experimented with our class combos) and some of the most knowledgeable regarding the abyss. Back then with all the crazy damage that staffmasters had, even when in the hands of one of the best staffies on the server, he was a distant third. This happened consistently, over many months. It was not an outlier, or anomaly. This was over more than 70 abyss runs and several hell cycles. The only place I was ever outdamaged/killed by a staffmaster was abos...for obvious reasons
As strange as it sounds, based on the above data, not only did 2h need a nerf, staffmasters needed a buff. It was something we discussed often at the time, but were unsure on how to fix.I feel like this data was never put forth or considered at the time the Qstaff nerf was being debated. If I am incorrect, please correct me.
Why do I bring this up now?
I started to come back a few months ago and am now regularly playing on HG again. When I came back I found out about the 2h balancing and the Qstaff nerf. I understood the former, but was really bummed about the latter, and when I played the monk I cringed. But the real problem was the staffmasters. Recently we did an azz 1-3 with spcleezard on his staffy, and leid on his tank BFM. Over the course of the run it ended up being 355k~ to 340k~...the 2x, no prince win bfm tank outdamaged the 7x 5 prince win geared to the teeth staffmaster. Pretty sure there was at least a
As far as staffmonks go...well they don't. They are a dead archetype, in every sense of the word. A monk would be better off going 1h nunchuk and torch over Qstaff. It would give more damage/stats/imms and add an augable item slot. A dex fist monk would do the exact same damage as my staffmonk does now, (literally within 2 damage per hit) and a str variant would easily surpass him.
My possible solution, should you think with a 2h bonus staffmaster damage would be too high, is to not allow it to apply to their class specific damage, and only the base weapon damage. Or perhaps, in the specific case of Qstaves, as staffmonks can pump out huge numbers, only have the base and str damage of the weapon amplified, and not any weapon buffs.
It just seemed to me like the best was balanced against the least, and not its peers. I'd like to suggest a revisit to this issue, or at least request a brief discussion.
Thank you for your time.
