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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 29, 2015 6:49:46 GMT
No. I was simply stating in a very impartial way that the problems cannot be fixed, as the problems are not this, or that, but that these are merely things happening withing a particular social system. I never said to overthrow anything. Changing the every day happenings of things within a social system simply will not change anything, when that system is the problem. That doesn't change anything. Nor will hyperbole responses.
Please read my prior responses to the original thread. If you have any questions, or counter arguments you should have posted those. Not insults, and not threats of banning. I apparently am not allowed to comment on this. It is this attitude that excludes diverse opinions which is part of why this thread exists. Original poster is dead on. You have to ask yourself why there are threats of banning about a single opinion. The original post, that is what should be discussed, and continue to be the focus of discussion. Not threats, or innuendo.
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 29, 2015 13:03:56 GMT
Ah I didn't see the reply from woqued earlier. Endless incarnations? The only incarnation I ever had besides this one was the first mongoose, an account I used so rarely, and so long ago I couldn't even remember the password, and had to make mongoose 2.
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Post by chirality on Dec 29, 2015 16:05:52 GMT
Ah, mongoose! Of course. I should have realized mongoose2=mongoose. I see that this account was both created and last seen on Dec 19th 2006 1:19pm, with zero posts, so now I understand why you made a new one. After all, 10 years is a long time to remember a password for a forums account that you literally never used. Did you play more recently than 2006? That's so far in the past that very few players even have memories of those days. Well, maybe it was only in the last few years that vets really started becoming too selfish? HG went downhill since 2006, or at what point did you notice these issues? So far I haven't had any luck brokering a peace between the newbies vs. vets. It seems that these 2 diametrically-opposing forces simply cannot co-exist peacefully, much as your theory claims. Perhaps you're right and this is just impossible to ever fix. What a shame. Well, anyway, thanks for visiting. The dilemma of HG dying is a terrible burden for us to bear, but there's no need for outsiders to help shoulder this burden for us. It was a pleasure to have your thoughts on these issues, but after all, you probably have better things to do, so thanks a lot for the input Good luck and best wishes for your New Year
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 30, 2015 4:38:32 GMT
I did try to play a little after that time, but it didn't really interest me very much. Time makes the past seem better than it was, nostalgia and all that. Good memories seemed better, and bad ones faded, so I tried to return to the server after many years off. Can't do it.
I do enjoy the game, and while there are some things that could be fixed that would improve game play, those things never will as they are part of the total problem.
It is an old game, and the only people left playing it are those with the most in common with each other, and the least in common with everyone else. When that is the case attracting a fresh base of players is really impossible.
When I speak of society I do not speak of culture, as the two are not the same thing. Societies "have" cultures, but that is not the society. Past cultural norms, as well as present ones can and do have an effect on how society develops, but the two are distinctly separate. The problems the server, and the game has are ones based upon a societal construct that is in truth a bit too much like the real world. Only you have none of the good, and or redeeming qualities that exist within the real world, and all of the bad ones. Why would anyone want to play a zero sum game like that? Only those who have already jockeyed for, and attained position are going to want that. And fresh recruits to the game are going to quickly discover that it is a near impossible task to ever attain the power, influence, wealth, or prestige of someone who has already attained that level of influence. I play games to escape reality, not immerse myself in the worst aspects of it.
The server reminds me of some studies done a while back. Some people participating were randomly chosen to be guards, while others were chosen to be prisoners. The guards were given power, and little or no oversight, and observed 24/7 to see how long it would take them to abuse their power. Needless to say each time such a study was done it had to be halted prematurely due to excessive abuse that could have resulted in a law suit filed by one of the participants being abused by the neglectful, and abusive guards. As for the prisoners they rarely, if ever stood up to the guards. Many became attached to their abusers, who very quickly created a Patty Hearst type scenario. Sadly what such studies demonstrated is just how easy it is for your average person to sink to the lowest common denominator among us given the opportunity. I am not saying the server is like that in total, but it reminds me of those experiments in some ways. If you look into those studies you will understand more.
Thanks for your compliments Chirality. I'm not sure everyone shares your sentiments, as someone used the rant, even though my post is anything but. However your kind words are appreciated nonetheless.
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 30, 2015 5:18:35 GMT
Umm, no.
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Post by sabregirl on Dec 30, 2015 16:40:12 GMT
Well as someone with a very old perspective (2006) back when I started there were two servers and the people on the server were downright hostile to new players and far more cliquish than anyone left today. With only two servers there weren't many places to escape to either.
Yet Tyranlthixis and I persisted because the game itself is good, challenging and fun. The server got really big and crazy for a while which was its own kind of fun but how it is now is simply different. For older players like me there's less to do without regular updates but for new players, there's a big, well done world to play in with tons of classes and quasiclasses to explore. There's years worth of stuff to do without any updates. That's not to say we don't need them, we definitely do. But what we have currently is worth publicizing and bringing in new people.
With so many servers now, newbies can ignore what they don't like, group together and make their own fun. That's what Ty and I did so many years ago and it was (and still is) a blast to do.
-S
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 31, 2015 5:16:36 GMT
We will have to agree to disagree. As someone who has had the newbie experience I can say that it is nothing like the rosy picture you are trying to paint Saber. Yes there is a lot of great content, and areas to explore, but you are focusing solely on the facile and positive details, without looking any deeper into the issues at hand.
The truth off the matter is that it is near impossible to compete with influential members of your community as a newbie. You can build the best build possible, but never get the needed subrace, or gear to compete. I spoke with other players who have been there consistently for years but who still did not have the best gear, or sub races. Even with one you will be without the other. Playing for years but still has no access to the best?
It also is not true that you can simply ignore who you want. There are too few players to be able to do that. Also if you don't like someone they probably do not like you. If it isn't a newbie but a long standing player that has jockeyed for, and attained position, and with that comes influence, you might find the game hard to play. Also the influential players "need" new players, or they would not have the necessary numbers to fill in the gaps within their slowly shrinking numbers. Not only that but the newbies need the influential members for their aid, as they usually lack the experience, and gear to do many runs. Their are too few of both groups. Because of these factors the kind of avoidance you speak of is not possible like it would be on a more diverse server with more equity and greater number. This is part of why the community has shrunk.
You have stated all of the positives without really exploring the negatives. Perhaps I did the same, but in reverse. However I did this to illustrate the problems, which outweigh the positives, and make exploring the positives simply impossible. I would go into more detail but it would be a waste of time. As I said before the current system really can't be fixed as it is, as it is based on literally the lowest common denominator among us as human beings. It could be changed, but that would require more will then I believe exists.
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Post by woqued on Dec 31, 2015 5:34:41 GMT
The truth off the matter is that it is near impossible to compete with influential members of your community as a newbie. You can build the best build possible, but never get the needed subrace, or gear to compete. I spoke with other players who have been there consistently for years but who still did not have the best gear, or sub races. Even with one you will be without the other. Playing for years but still has no access to the best? Yeah so this is complete bs. If you build the best build possible you will get the needed subraces and gears really fast. Even on subpar build and toon, if you play well and a lot you will get to a certain point of completion quite fast. Edit: of course the server is built so that it is not possible on a tank. But casters and shifters progress really effin fast.
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 31, 2015 5:39:05 GMT
That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. However you offer no counter arguments, or arguments to support your opinion, so simply disagreeing doesn't mean very much in terms of proving a point.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 5:42:14 GMT
That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. However you offer no counter arguments, or arguments to support your opinion, so simply disagreeing doesn't mean very much in terms of proving a point. Personal experience is more valuable than your pseudo-scientific rabble-babble. So: your vet stories of being "have nots" is probably your strongest point. While true, I would say that they aren't representative of players who dedicate themselves to starting runs themselves instead of letting others do it, and also not representative of players who play a valuable role (like a caster).
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 31, 2015 5:54:03 GMT
Personal experience is what is called anecdotal evidence, and your assertion that my assertions are wrong is nothing more than someone disagreeing with me without offering an argument for that argument, or offering a counter argument to disprove mine. You are entitled to disagree, and have an opinion, of course, but what you're doing now, seeking to distract, and disprove my arguments by insinuation and casting aspersions is not appropriate. Not to mention changing the subject from the argument at hand to what is really a pretty base personal attack. Now you are lowering things to the lowest common denominator. Personal attacks.
By the way. I am also speaking from personal experience. The only difference with mine is that I offered an argument, and simply didn't say "I disagree because you are rabble babble." One is appropriate, and one is not. Can you comment positively without casting aspersions, and making personal attacks?
I suggest you read my post, and do me the courtesy of offering counter arguments to specific points, instead of throwing out personal attacks that are more or less rude denials that I really cannot offer a counter argument to, except to object to the personal and negative tone of it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 5:59:59 GMT
"Influential" players do not need new players like you - they can do runs themselves or with a group of friends they already have. You are not entitled to join them, nor is it in their best interest to help you. Not every run needs 10 players to complete, nor do people even want 10 players to finish a run. This seems to revolve entirely around you and what you are entitled to. You are entitled to nothing, nor is it beneficial for established groups to attempt to help dysfunctional newbies that don't show promise. Personal experience is what is called anecdotal evidence And speculation is better?
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 31, 2015 6:03:38 GMT
A perfect example of why new players leave.
Few of your comments above can, or should be responded to without personal attacks. As I said, lowest common denominator.
New players who know nothing about the server will not tolerate that kind of inequity built into the system. They will vote with their feet, and clearly they do, or this thread would not exist. You seem to resent anyone saying that influential players need help. They do of course. They need to feel useful, and they need to have something to do. Doing the same runs over and over again gets old, so seeing things through a new set of eyes, and changing the dynamic of the run helps greatly. This is just social science, and what you call speculation is simply science you may not be familiar with. As for your choice to respond with ad hominem attacks instead of addressing the issues I spoke of. That doesn't speak well of you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 6:11:04 GMT
There is no inequity "built into the system". Each and every one of us here on this server started out as a complete noob and worked hard(aka time-effort) to get to where we are today. There were no "shortcuts" for any of us. No "I win" button that handed us demicounts.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 6:15:38 GMT
so seeing things through a new set of eyes, and changing the dynamic of the run helps greatly. I prefer to play games to have fun, not to babysit.
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