Smiter XR Race Discussion (Response to Other Thread)

[Deleted]

Response to this post by FunkySwerve  
(Decided to create a new thread for this, to avoid hijacking the discussion on Fallen/other XR subs in the original one).

I will address your questions to the very best of my ability, though there are likely others who would be able to give more comprehensive answers for the harder aspects.
Aiming to break up the post and be as concise as possible while retaining the salient points, but I get the feeling this will be a long post anyway.
Please comment if I have missed anything important/got something wrong here.

To clarify my previous post in the other thread, by 'endgame builds will get used in endgame runs' I just meant that Level 80 runs will require builds tuned to those runs' difficulty.
For example, at the moment it is possible for a high level/demi 2H Smiter to NOT use Rapier at all, opting to cop the ~10 AB penalty (from relying on non-maxed STR for AB, instead of maxed CHA) in exchange for using a better weapon such as Morningstar for a Half-Eladrin, or Halberd for a Pharlan.
This sort of choice only works because it's a Level 80 toon fighting through Level 60 runs, and would likely not be appropriate for Paragon areas - thus the necessity of a specific XR race allowing small-sized toons, if 2H is the aim.

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On the topic of build options, quick refresher course on the fundamental stat requirements for Paladin Smiters:

[1] 40 base Strength, to gain Critical Hit immunity from Death Ward.
Endgame Smiters get +20 Strength for 'free' [4 (CC Paladin) + 10 (Extra Smiting 10) + 4 (x2 Demi) + 2 (Paragon stats)], so 20 Strength after subrace edits is sufficient to meet this requirement for a Level 80 toon.
[2] 'Enough' Dexterity to pass basic checks
This is quite subjective and varies from builds to build, but tanks need to be immune to the basic trash who have Dexterity checks in the mid-high 30's (eg: Paragon Erinyes, Narzugon, Advespa, Jarilith), though its nice to break into the 40s if possible and you will always be happy to have more.
It's usually sustainable to start with ~14 base Dexterity, which can max out Effective Dexterity at 46 (with Asmo Belt/Paragon Balance/5x Abyss wins).
Point is, Dexterity penalties hurt.
[3] 15 Wisdom, to cast Extended Level 4 spells.
A pure Paladin will have minimum 11 Wisdom, so this requirement is met by default with x2 Demi.
[4] As much Charisma as possible, after all other conditions are met
Provides more dice on the Smite, as well as increased damage from Divine Might and Shield AC from Divine Shield. AB if Rapier Wit is used.

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BUR Race Options:
Need to discuss the BUR options to better understand their XR upgrades. Also including a 'summary' of the key benefits specific to Smiters (with regards to the requirements listed above).

Pharlan (Half-Elf) - +4 STR/WIS/CHA, Great Strength 1+2, Divine Might, Levitation, SR: 15 + 1/Level
Summary: +6 STR, +4 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat, added bonus of Levitation, unlocked LSA: Listen
Hound Archon (Any) - +4 STR/CHA, +2 CON/WIS, Power Attack, Extra Smiting, Great Smiting 1, SR: 10 + 1/Level
Summary: +4 STR, +4 CHA, 2 Pre-Epic Feats, 1 Epic Feat + base race bonus (likely LSA: Listen from Half-Elf base)
Half-Eladrin (Gnome) - +7 STR, +5 CHA, Great Charisma 1+2, Divine Shield [Small]
Summary: +5 STR (Gnome penalty), +7 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat
Half-Cloud Giant (Human) - +4 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, +6 CHA, Great Strength 1+2, WP: Exotic, Levitation [Large]
Summary: +6 STR, -2 DEX, +6 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat (Human bonus), added bonus of Levitation

Comments:
*We immediately see that Pharlan and Hound Archon are very similar for Smiters. However, the extra feats from Hound Archon generally get mostly nullified by being 2 Strength behind compared to Pharlan (recall Requirement [1]'s need for 20 base Strength), with free Levitation and +5 SR giving Pharlan a small edge IMO.
*Half-Eladrin obviously provides the only option to go 2H while maintaining AB, via Rapier Wit.
*Half-Cloud Giant provides an option to go Large, which seems to be more of a cosmetic option than anything else. Unlike Half-Eladrin using the size change to 2H Rapier, being Large doesn't provide any significant benefit (in fact, it carries a -1 AB/AC penalty).
IMO the +2 Charisma it has over Pharlan is not worth the loss of LSA: Listen, 1 AB/AC, and 2 Dexterity (see Requirement [2]). TBH, I have never even *heard* of anyone using this race.

We will discuss XR options next.

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Ibixian:

I searched the forum for 'Ibixian' and found two relevant quotes from more experienced players (I have trimmed them a little):

Feb 25, 2014 15:30:20 GMT jeanhelixü said:

"Ibixian" (secret eXtremely Rare; changes Appearance)
- FC: Paladin / BCs: Champion of Torm, Blackguard
- STR +8, DEX -4, CON +6, CHA +2, Intimidate +4
- Free Feats: Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Great Smite I-III, Armor Skin, Toughness, Alertness
- Other: Changes size to Large, Fast, +2 vs KD checks

This seems like an utterly worthless race. +16 bonus to stats and -4 penalty. However as I mentioned earlier Dex is worth way more than Con. So this is at best equivalent to a +10 point race. The dex penalty on this is absolutely crushing in any hells+ area you'd constantly be dom by erinyes or KD by things you didn't even realize forced checks. +2 vs KD checks is not going to make up -4 vs all checks. Large size loses another 1 AC so you're going to be hurting even more. Further +2 cha only is going to make it more difficult to reach useful cha for smites anyways. Carpet tank race.
If making a large size tank is some sort of obsession, then using Dracotaur is a better answer even for a paladin, Smites wouldn't be very good on the Ibixian anyways so giving them up and going Dracotaur for better dex is a better option. If your obsession extends to a smiting large size race, Half-Cloud Giant is the answer:
It gives less dex penalty, way more cha, and just 2 less strength. Since -1 ab isn't that big a concern and cha gives more damage than strength for a divine tank this is better melee damage than Ibixian as well. More feat tight but that's not that big an issue. It also throws in the ever useful levitation.

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Yeah large size divine tanks don't really exist in my experience and they are a fail build. The race is going to be furchin regardless. There's no advantage to a large size divine tank at all, and I don't really think it's worth making a reason for them to exist either. I'd personally rather just delete the race and stop people from building large size divine tanks that invariably suck.
I was trying to point out why it sucks compared to other races though, not as a concept of build

Feb 25, 2014 15:48:18 GMT Raj said:

[Ibixian] really sux. It's more a issue of large size divine tanks (who the hell came out with such fail build idea? ), because afterall Funky wanted XRs to be a direct upgrade to existing BURs, so Ibixian is going to be the Half-Cloud Giant upgrade.

The problem is that the bur subrace is already weak because it's the build concept that doesn't work (or better said, it works worse than a classic medium sized toon)
Anyway, the BUR subbie at least adds +6 charisma, making smiting easier to achieve, the +2 on the XR is a bit of a joke. I'd modify as follow:

"Ibixian" (secret eXtremely Rare; changes Appearance)
- FC: Paladin / BCs: Champion of Torm, Blackguard
- STR +6, DEX -2, CON +2, CHA +8, Intimidate +4
- Free Feats: Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Great Smite I-II, Armor Skin, Toughness, Alertness
- Other: Changes size to Large, Fast, +2 vs KD checks

This way it's at least a clear upgrade over the BUR version: same final str considering the feats, so it's +2 charisma, 2 smite feats, 1 must have feat and two next to useless ones in exchange for levitation.

A good starting point for discussion of Ibixian edits is probably Raj's suggestion (highlighted in green).

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Other Smiter XRs:

Alu-Fiend (Half-Elf) - +2 STR/DEX/CON/INT, +6 CHA, WF/GWF/EWF/WS/EWS: Rapier, Rapier Wit, Mounted Combat, Charm Immunity
Summary: +2 STR, +2 DEX, +6 CHA, 3 Pre-Epic Feats (though GWF is not mandatory), 1 Epic Feat, unlocks Weapon Specialisation Tree
Solarborn [Male] (Half-Elf) - +6 STR, +2 INT/WIS, +4 CHA, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Extra Smiting, Great Smite I-II, Mounted Combat, Divine Immunity +25%, Survival: Levitation
Summary: +6 STR, +4 CHA, 3 Pre-Epic Feats, 2 Epic Feats, added bonus of 25% Divine Immunity + Levitation

Comments:
*Solarborn is the clear upgrade of Pharlan/Hound Archon, with Alu-Fiend being a new niche Rapier-focused option. 
*Solarborn seems like the better choice for Smiters (to my eye, anyway). On further inspection (and some rough paper build planning), I think they are two separate 'flavours' without one being necessarily better or worse overall. An Alu-Fiend filling out the Weapon Specialisation tree ends up several feats behind a Solarborn which likely causes a loss of Charisma (~4-6 points?), on top of losing 25% Divine and free Levitation. But +20 damage and +2 Dexterity are very tasty indeed...
*In terms of 'alternatives' for 2H Rapier-users, there is currently NO alternative at the XR tier at all, so the next best choice is sticking with the BUR Half-Eladrin.

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Proposed Half-Shiradi Statting:
Sticking to the proposal by Twilight Semner for now.

Half-Eladrin (Gnome) - +7 STR, +5 CHA, Great Charisma 1+2, Divine Shield [Small]
Summary: +5 STR (Gnome penalty), +7 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat
-->
Half-Shiradi (Gnome) - +8 STR, +6 CHA, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Extra Smiting, Armor Skin, Epic Prowess, Mounted Combat, Levitation [Small]
Summary: +6 STR (Gnome penalty), +6 CHA, 3 Pre-Epic Feats, 2 Epic Feats, added bonus of Levitation

So the difference is +1 STR, -1 CHA, +2 Pre-Epic Feats, +2 Epic Feats, Levitation.

Comments:
*There actually isn't a notable upgrade from BUR -> XR in terms of stats.
*If the Devastating Critical Route is not taken, there is no need to take Power Attack since both Divine Might and Divine Shield have been given for free, so these builds effectively get +1 free Pre-Epic feat.

Anyway, I am relatively satisfied with the current suggestion as it is - the total numbers seem to be in line with the non-2H option, Solarborn.
But it would be nice for there to be more discussion about possible alternatives/ideas here.

[FunkySwerve]

Very nicely set out. Also, I understand what you were saying about end-game builds now - please ignore the 'tautology' label. I will take this to the Team, but I don't see any huge problems.

On another note, what can be done to redress the problems with Half-Ibixian and Half-Cloud Giant? Do the coming weapon edits have any bearing, or the ability to weild a larger weapon with a shield (or do they rely too much on CHA)?

Thanks,
Funky

[Deleted]

I have zero experience with playing large-size toons, so this is all theory-craft.

Large-size allows two 'unique' options over medium-size, with regards to weapon-choice:
(a) Wield Large weapon + Shield (instead of Medium weapon + Shield)
(b) Wield Huge weapon 2H (instead of Large weapon 2H)

Picking Martial slashing weapons as an example (actually, Mercurial Greatsword is Exotic), here are the numbers after slated weapon changes:

Battleaxe (Medium)                    - 1d8 base, 20/x4 criticals
Greataxe (Large)                       - 1d10 base, 20/x4 criticals
Mercurial Greatsword (Huge)      - 1d12 base, 20/x4 criticals

So options (a) and (b) each give an average of +1 damage per hit, at the cost of -1 AB/AC inherent to large-size.
(Side-note, when judging the benefit of upping a die, don't forget the comic Raj linked!)



Short answer is, with slated weapon numbers there is NO incentive to pick a large-sized toon over a medium-sized toon IMO.

Furthermore, for Ibixian/Half-Cloud Giant specifically, the fact that Charisma only provides AB for Rapiers means that they can't even take advantage of options (a) and (b).
So it purely becomes a matter of comparing the stats granted to other races, in which case they always lose out (as discussed in the original post).

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Where to go from here?

To make large-size more appealing in general, the best way is to buff Huge weapons significantly (buffing Large weapons carries the benefits over to medium-size 2Hers as well).
For example, you could make both Lance and Mercurial Sword require Exotic Proficiency and increase the critical numbers to 19-20/x5 or something gigantic like that (if much weaker than that I think there still won't be notable incentive to build a toon around using these weapons), and then *maybe* we would start to see more large toons.

For the Ibixian/Half-Cloud Giant situation, some ideas:
(1) Make Rapier Wit cover Mercurial Sword as well (ie: provide a 'large slashing 2H' variant along with the current 'small piercing 2H' one)
*This would not be sufficient by itself, but combined with Huge weapon buffs and/or other Ibixian/Half-Cloud Giant buffs, then maybe...?
*If the lore/concept of it doesn't work, could just introduce a new feat for it - Terrifying Swordsman or something

(2) Improve their stats significantly, to compete with the other subrace options
*This is sort of problematic, because at best you would get a Pharlan/Hound Archon situation where the subraces end up being equivalent, and at worst there will be a reversal of the subrace balance with Ibixian/Half-Cloud Giant being the best ones.
*If there was some way to give Ibixian a 'flavour' (similar to my discussion about Alu-Fiend vs Solarborn) then it might work, but I'm not sure what that flavour could be. As with the above point, I suspect in most cases that one option will be objectively stronger than the other after min-maxing.

[Deleted]

Been doing some further thinking, here is a possible version of Ibixian that would be playable IF the following *TWO* changes are added as well:

Change 1: Mercurial Sword and Lance changed to both require Exotic Proficiency, and have stats of 19-20/x4
*This would give them the highest 'weapon stats' in the game. Appropriate given they require a proficiency feat and only large subs can use them (2H, at that). Recall that just being large automatically causes -1 AB/AC.
*Not sure if this change alone would be enough incentive for people in general to play large-size toons more, but it definitely makes them more viable than they are at present.

Change 2: Rapier Wit's bonuses carry over to Mercurial Greatsword
*Added benefit that a large-size Smiter can swap to Rapier as a 1H option for different damage type/slightly better defences, on top of being able to use a stronger weapon in exchange for lower AB

Change 3: Following these two changes, Ibixian is altered to:

"Ibixian" (secret eXtremely Rare; changes Appearance)
- FC: Paladin / BCs: Champion of Torm, Blackguard
- STR +6, DEX -2, CON +4, CHA +8, Intimidate +4
- Free Feats: Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Epic Prowess, Armor Skin
- Other: Changes size to Large, Fast, +2 vs KD checks

*On top of the free Weapon Proficiency Exotic required to use the Huge weapons, it now has 3 Pre-Epic and 2 Epic feats (in line with the other XR options).
*Note that unlike the other XR Smiter options, these feats lock you into the Devastating Critical route (this is the 'flavour' of Ibixian).
*Compared to other race options, it has higher Charisma at the cost of Dexterity, with a bit of Constitution added as a bonus.

Now, the purpose of an Ibixian Smiter is to use Mercurial Greatsword with Devastating Critical, whereas a Half-Shiradi uses Rapier with the *option* of taking Devastating Critical or not (remember that when Half-Shiradi skips Devastating Critical, they get another 'free' pre-epic feat due to not requiring Power Attack).

'Back of the envelope' build comparisons between Ibixian and Half-Shiradi, based on these stats/weapon changes:
*Half-Shiradi has +2 DEX, +2 AB/AC, +1 skill per level, Levitation, option to ignore Devastating Critical and take even more Charisma (improved AB/AC/Smites/Damage)
*Ibixian has better Listen, higher damage against critical-vulnerables, a more effective weapon-swap option (Slashing -> Piercing, both covered by Rapier Wit), as well as +2 CON, Fast speed, +2 vs KD checks, innate Sleep Immunity - large size looks cool, but reduces mobility as well

Yes, they end up being very similar. Ibixian leans more towards dealing damage, while Half-Shiradi is sturdier, more consistent and can be the better Smiter.
Depending on the amount of critical-vulnerables and effectiveness of Slashing vs Piercing in Paragon areas, it is likely that one of them will become a clear winner.

I honestly think that the two options are so similar that it seems highly impractical to have two races for them, but so far this idea is the best I can come up with to make Ibixian playable without 100% overlap with a different race.

Note that ALL these changes have to go through simultaneously, as they all depend on each other; without all three, Ibixian will be unambiguously weaker than Half-Shiradi.


Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas?

[desocupado]

I like that rationale ssj2poliwhirl. Tough I would throw Cha-2 and wis+4 (to help to free up stat points for intelligence regardless of build choice).

Also having higher Wisdom would allow the fancy smiter-turner-din - (maybe free planar turning instead of wisdom (not sure it would break too many things or enable extra domains in LL)

[Deleted]

Mar 14, 2016 12:43:20 GMT desocupado said:

I like that rationale ssj2poliwhirl. Tough I would throw Cha-2 and wis+4 (to help to free up stat points for intelligence regardless of build choice).

Also having higher Wisdom would allow the fancy smiter-turner-din - (maybe free planar turning instead of wisdom (not sure it would break too many things or enable extra domains in LL)

From 'Requirement [3]' in the OP, Wisdom is not required for a pure Paladin so they are wasted points, while Charisma is the most important stat for the class.
Though I suppose dropping CON to +2 and instead adding +2 WIS would allow full casting with the 8 base Wisdom available to non-Pure Paladins.

Smiter-turner-din... to be blunt, I would rather just make a Gnomish Inventor. Then at least when someone does '!who party class' they will know in advance that my toon will be atrocious.
XR races should not be built around weak gimmicks that have no place in an endgame party.

In any case, this version of Ibixian is locked into Devastating Critical which makes the stat-crunch of such a build even harsher. Solarborn is much more appropriate for it.

[desocupado]

What breaks smiter-turner-dins is the steep wisdom 25 requirement - That's why I also suggested Planar turning as a new unique bonus and a carrot for pure builds. (even instead of +2 kd checks). It would also adress the "being too similar" issue - if it fixes that flaw - tough I'll suggest a buff for such builds on another thread.

You are right about the Cha tough.

Bonus Wisdom is also useful for non-pure BG (the most common type).