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Post by desocupado on Oct 7, 2016 2:01:57 GMT
(Disclaimer: I have played over 1000 hours here, if you are new to HG have no doubt, this server is really fun. And it is as fun as NWN 1 can get.)
In a different direction from some recent discussions, there's one thing that has always bugged me.
Pre-LL (1-40) feels quite different from the LL part.
Most LL feel quite different from Hells and beyond (Oinos, Abyss and Limbo).
Although Elysium and Aboleth do feel like a mid term between LL and Hells and beyond.
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This hit me as I saw johannhowitzer doing his speedrunning research/playthrough - 1-40 can be taken as a full server in itself (and it was in the past I believe) - I did have a monk-bg blue dragon with unresistable damage a long time ago.
I'm not saying everything works perfect 1-40, but it's a pretty fun environment with the several challenges for max level characters and things to solo.
I do appreciate the smaller scope of the runs (enforcing the usual stacking of moad-drow-immo excluded).
I've been wondering if UR (randomized) gear spoils the challenge of level 40 stuff.
After that we have LL - Personally I don't like much the numeric variation between 40-55 i.e. difficulty feel mostly based on numbers (I suppose those runs would be better dealt at correct levels if your party had the appropriate abcd composition). Beyond that it mostly feel either a drag or being dragged through. LL runs start to feel pretty long, specially if not employing the correct strategy. I suppose this is Pre-LL tags in a bigger scope.
This is further enforced due people at higher levels 55+ doing the lower runs to tag (making the appropriate level character feel useless). Which in return also mean the rewards get irrelevant pretty soon (most set items don't compare that well to UR gear and BUR gear is just over the corner).
We have lots of content and different areas in LL, but limited incentive to repeat them (basically only DB weapons and artifacts stand out) - tags are mostly irrelevant in the long run. Well mandatory keys and tags, are just that mandatory (sissy-db-thids are interesting, but I do feel burned out due having done them so many times).
55+ content, specially 60+, create a whole new dynamic because as a new tier of gear drops there (BUR). Although set items do compare well to the new tier at this point (asmodeus artifacts, abyss gear). So does the tag (demigodhood is very big bonus). However since this exists, optional stuff from before (LL) and it's rewards become irrelevant. Here one should expect 60-120 minutes runs (unless overleveled - which happens often nowadays)
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It's amazing how everything was wrapped up together and how higher level stuff feel like a bigger scope of the lower level part but there is a real distance between those parts, which in return will alienate and separate those characters/players. Also not everyone is interested in the bigger scope part - although it feels like you are being dragged when you play with people using advantages you can't have for a long time (subrace dc and perfect gear).
Even in 1-40 we see huge difference with BUR races additional stats and feat and UR gear. LL has paragon and/or hell ready characters farming/tagging instead of the appropriate 41-55 party adventuring.
The characters above that (55+) have their own game (since the economy do lies there it's where the true grind takes place). This alienates them from previous content - since there is a huge wall to get to this point this makes them stuck at this point with low performance for a while.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 2:38:30 GMT
I don't think there is anything profound about this - the 'split' is almost entirely due to party level restrictions, which are effectively removed after Level 34. Hypothetically, if party level restrictions were removed earlier and level caps removed from tags, the exact same comments could be made for 1-40 as well.
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Post by desocupado on Oct 7, 2016 10:41:53 GMT
Maybe it's easier to visualize it this way. | Level Range | Loot split drama | Party restriction | Party enforcing
(melee classes always need caster's weapon buffs)
| Soloable content | Pre-LL (1-40)
| Non-existing (sometimes consumable keys)
| Rule Enforced (6 level difference)
Tag level restrictions
| Need specific classes for some tags
Having more characters speed up some tags significantly
| Most lower level tags
Most mid-higher level content (with appropriate caster class)
| LL (41-55)
| Limited to some runs (artifacts and tag key chains)
| Subtle (less xp with overleveled characters)
| Mix up with being carried on runs with overleveled characters
Party composition can optimize runs a lot
| Feywild and Elemental planes (XP and random loot)Most LL runs aren't soloable at the correct levels (except a few cases of class-run matches)
Most LL runs aren't soloable at the correct levels (except a few cases of class-run matches)
| Post LL (55+)
| High (the best gear ever could drop anywhere)
| Implicit (huge character power discrepancy , specific party composition needs)
Strict tag order
| Runs must be done in order
ABCD party composition requirement
| Oinos (xp and loot) - huge difference in class performance
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Yes, if tag level caps and party restrictions were removed from 1-40 it would behave similar to LL+ in the sense people can be dragged (well there is already some dragging for some melee classes in some tags) although I think LL dragging happens mostly due: 1 - high level going for some obscure tag (if they are going for loot, a party is less likely to occur - biggest offender black piramid) 2 - high level needing a consumable key (desert-db-thids-avernus) |
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Post by chirality on Oct 7, 2016 15:59:29 GMT
You mentioned "loot split drama" in the lazar thread as well. What does this mean? That not everyone gets the treasure they wish from each run?
What is this analysis/visualization intended to prove/show? What bugs you and what are you saying should be changed? The loot split, the no level caps in LLs, or what?
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Post by woqued on Oct 7, 2016 21:40:07 GMT
Wall of text:
Most games have different parts to it as you progress and party mechanisms change. I don't think it's fair to call it 3 different servers as in pretty much every MMORPG or team/party-action RPG I've ever played the metagame for early level dungeons, midlevel dungeons and later dungeons will always be very different including party composition requirements, size requirements, loot splitting, gear/build/setup requirements and so on. That's just how it is as the game (rightfully so, to keep challenging the player) gets harder (and different!) to keep the player interested. If the player wants to re-experience the earlier portions of the game, HG offers nice oppourtunities to testing various builds which I feel is one of the main appeals - the variety of builds. Whether they are fit for endgame or not can be later tweaked via reincarnation - whether this is your cup of tea or not is up for personal preferance (personally I hate reincarnating and it's a bit of a turnoff for me atm, knowing my characters don't reach the potential they could but I'd need to do something of a chore to reach it - but the oppourtunity is there).
I think it's obvious but earlier portions of the game have a lesser knowledge cap than the later portions of the game, as the player has gotten more acquainted and accustomed to the game so the lategame can't be just whacking skeletons or goblins - else the player will have grown bored. The change that happens in getting there is not enough to call it a different server, imo. It would be more prudent to say that there are big differences in the various parts of the server.
I'd like to second the questions chirality raised - what is this analysis/visualization intended to prove/show? I don't really get it. The biggest impact of this that I see is giving a newer player an extremely opinionated view of one player (you) on whether there is any potential in the server to cater to their gaming craving or not, and how deep down the rabbits hole do they need to go in order to find it - and for this purpose you might've focused on different aspects of the server instead of the things you mention (loot split drama, party restrictions, party enforcing - very inaccurate and seemingly negative pov). Soloable content on the other hand is a valuable piece of information for this, though the information you provide on that part isn't very well-covered, at least for the LL part (ignoring arcanes, shifters, clerics and druids?).
Which leads me to see this as a whiny post instead of an informative one - so you are annoyed by the gaps between early game, LL areas and the Post-LL areas. How would you approach to fix these gaps if you find them problematic - to make the transition from one phase to another more smooth so to say. Personally I think there are plenty of things that could be done:
- Adding handcrafted set items to the 1-40 part that will help progressing into LL areas
- Reworking some pre-LL tags specifically Mother of Corn, Zerya, some others to take some reasonable damage or add a buff item to deal those dmg types
- Add some minorly weapon buffing items to the game scaling from pre-LL to LL areas to Post-LL areas (1,2,3 dmg dice respectively for pre-,LL,postLL) that have set drop locations for specific damage types
- Giving a flat xp upon completing a tag for the first time to avoid incentivizing towards farming only the runs with high mob density and instead incentivizing adventuring to various areas
**Note: this could even be applied to the babyrage on Limbo: What if Limbo pt1 completion for first time for a specific toon took it from, say, lvl 73 to 74 instantly, and Limbo pt2 completion from 74 to 75? [NOTE: Limbo has no tag reward compareable to demicount / abyss prince tagging benefits]. This would highly incentivize trying various toons and multiple runthroughs on the different toons, just for the completion experience - and be compareable in exp gain to the same time spent farming the good old Minauros (or worse, Rona/DB/Thids/PoM) despite being challenging and time consuming.
- Giving a flat 25% xp boost from current LL xp if there are no over-leveled toons in the party to reduce the amount of repetition needed and to have less incentive towards dragging
**Note: I prefer the tag completion bonus because it's not good to alienate those with only high level toons either.
- Reworking a lot of Pre-LL / LL / Post-LL Set items which have grown outdated to give added incentive to run various maps as well as giving more non-random items for new players to look for before venturing deeper in the module.
**Examples: updating the Black Pyramid rings would be a big one here for transition from LL to Post-LL - updating the Immortal items from The Immortal to cater towards the needs of a lvl 40-45 player looking to tackle LL areas. The transition from Abyss/Ely/Abo/Hells to Limbo (basically transition from Post-LL to Paragon) is a much smoother process in comparison - there are set items to help with Limbo (than3 sets, abo sets, vestiges, asmo artis) - far more than the previous transitions.
- .. Many other suggestions in various threads over the forums that don't come to mind right now, but here are some that seem to go along the lines of fixing what you see as flawed in the servers' mechanics as is, as I understood from your visualization. One of the bigger problems you mention aka the party enforcing is simply a pretty tough nut to crack with the server being made for a bigger population than populates it and an active trading environment - both of which are no longer present. Old farts are so rich they don't really need to trade, and new folk have nothing to offer for it besides secrets, and those are class restricted to attain as they need a high searching skill and the know-how of locations and skill requirements (Edit: there are actually the pre-LL secrets that you can find without search that are quite valuable for re-randomizing strong UR items such as Breach Boots, Druid(shifter) Staves, caster slot gear, UR rings, Gleaming Glints and so on - but this is somehow not a common practice, not sure why. Again one of the things that would be potential within the game that the playerbases' culture doesn't tap into).
... But it's such a massive amount of work and there is a limited amount of devving work being done on the server as is. There are various things cooked up, and the to-do list is pretty Massive from what I understand - a lot of things would be fun to implement and from DEV PoV it's easy to make lots of changes on the fly if you can be there to fix it afterwards, but it is a hobby project for when there is time, and currently there seems to be no time.. It's hard to make any changes on the server not knowing if you'll have the time to fix it if it ends up being a bad call, or if it's actually needed or just an opinionated loud minority whining, searching for some fantasy from 15 years ago that may not exist even after a change has been made.
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Post by desocupado on Oct 7, 2016 21:50:28 GMT
I got the "loot split drama" idea from tvtropes: Loot DramaIn HG's case there's some drama around calling a LL artifact run or on a split where a SH or PW is involved (this varies in extend). It also discourages making parties (every time that GI takes the first pick your tendency to party up dies a little inside). This can be taken another step further when you consider harder runs (where people might not contribute much). Well what I'm trying to show is that it's not a good thing to have such discrepancy - many features and solutions work inequality on different parts of the server. When I voice a concern/suggestion about run length or party making, perhaps I'm missing the pre-LL style of play, with several small objectives. When someone complains about stuff lost on death, we fail to remember that not losing gear was something that made being immortal exciting. Even quasiclasse work quite differently (with the not-so-fun qualifying part taking place in pre-LL harsher to next to unplayable performance for some classes) What should be done (if anything)... I'm not sure. The pre-LL is a server on itself, but some features from later on (like URs and subraces) break some of the balance. I think LL is the most pressing region, it's a literal desert. Ironically it has that "adventure" feeling - with such distinct runs - unfortunately it's hard to appreciate it given the ab/ac/sr/save progression of LLs and the xp/hour pressure. Post-LL (PL) is where the grind is. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 22:09:33 GMT
In HG's case there's some drama around calling a LL artifact run or on a split where a SH or PW is involved (this varies in extend). It also discourages making parties (every time that GI takes the first pick your tendency to party up dies a little inside). This can be taken another step further when you consider harder runs (where people might not contribute much). This is not specific to HG at all. In all areas of life, there will always be a level of dissatisfaction when equal pay is given for unequal work. A doctor and a janitor can work from 9AM-6PM at the same hospital every day, but if they had the same salary the doctor would not be happy about it (higher skilled labour is expected to have greater compensation). The same applies to a party environment in gaming; if a team member isn't pulling their weight at all (indirectly linked to the chosen class, but a skilled player can still be very impactful with a low-tier class), there will probably be some degree of resentment if they roll high in the split and take a valuable item. This is just one of the factors in the classic debate about elitism/unshouted runs. |
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Post by desocupado on Oct 7, 2016 22:46:38 GMT
I don't think it's fair to call it 3 different servers as in pretty much every MMORPG or team/party-action RPG I've ever played the metagame for early level dungeons, midlevel dungeons and later dungeons will always be very different including party composition requirements, size requirements, loot splitting, gear/build/setup requirements and so on. That's just how it is as the game (rightfully so, to keep challenging the player) gets harder (and different!) to keep the player interested. If the player wants to re-experience the earlier portions of the game, HG offers nice opportunities to testing various builds which I feel is one of the main appeals - the variety of builds. That's a good way to look at it. But some people only enjoy massive stuff and other enjoy small stuff. For instance I dislike parties above 4 players (even tough I like pet classes). I'm sure some people out there find battle with less than 16 participants not exciting. Whether they are fit for endgame or not can be later tweaked via reincarnation - whether this is your cup of tea or not is up for personal preference (personally I hate reincarnating and it's a bit of a turnoff for me atm, knowing my characters don't reach the potential they could but I'd need to do something of a chore to reach it - but the oppourtunity is there). I find reincarnating a precious time saver and that it grants room for testing (which is a need given the sheer number of options). Now if everyone frustrated at their bad character (tank XXX) could swap into a better one, couldn't things work better? Maybe instead of reincarnation timer it could reset a xp-boost timer. I think it's obvious but earlier portions of the game have a lesser knowledge cap than the later portions of the game, as the player has gotten more acquainted and accustomed to the game so the lategame can't be just whacking skeletons or goblins - else the player will have grown bored. The change that happens in getting there is not enough to call it a different server, imo. It would be more prudent to say that there are big differences in the various parts of the server. Well this server was just 1-40. Then it was just 1-60. Now it is 1-80. I'd like to second the questions chirality raised - what is this analysis/visualization intended to prove/show? I don't really get it. The biggest impact of this that I see is giving a newer player an extremely opinionated view of one player (you) on whether there is any potential in the server to cater to their gaming craving or not, and how deep down the rabbits hole do they need to go in order to find it - and for this purpose you might've focused on different aspects of the server instead of the things you mention (loot split drama, party restrictions, party enforcing - very inaccurate and seemingly negative pov). Soloable content on the other hand is a valuable piece of information for this, though the information you provide on that part isn't very well-covered, at least for the LL part (ignoring arcanes, shifters, clerics and druids?). Well this isn't a review. Indeed my view of solo in LL (feywild and elemental planes) is a bit negative - because i dislike the xp/gear grind - I'll present it in a different light then. Which leads me to see this as a whiny post instead of an informative one - so you are annoyed by the gaps between early game, LL areas and the Post-LL areas. How would you approach to fix these gaps if you find them problematic - to make the transition from one phase to another more smooth so to say. Personally I think there are plenty of things that could be done: 1 Adding handcrafted set items to the 1-40 part that will help progressing into LL areas 2 Reworking some pre-LL tags specifically Mother of Corn, Zerya, some others to take some reasonable damage or add a buff item to deal those dmg types 3 Add some minorly weapon buffing items to the game scaling from pre-LL to LL areas to Post-LL areas (1,2,3 dmg dice respectively for pre-,LL,postLL) that have set drop locations for specific damage types 4 Giving a flat xp upon completing a tag for the first time incentivize adventuring to various areas 5 Giving a flat 25% xp boost from current LL xp if there are no over-leveled toons in the party to reduce the amount of repetition needed 6 Reworking a lot of Pre-LL / LL / Post-LL Set items which have grown outdated to give added incentive to run various maps as well as giving more non-random items for new players to look for before venturing deeper in the module.. 1 UR gear is enough in actuality - rares and bellow that need to go away sooner and those need to show up earlier. 2 Losing 100% concealment / excessive AC and 100% Phy imm also goes a long way. (while being immune to physical soups) 3 How about weapons with 2 more elemental dice and weapon buffs with 2 less dice? (the whole weapon buff system feels so not fun) 4 Sounds great - bonus point if it stacks with appropriate level bonus 5 It goes up to 100% nowadays I think (or high level people cut it to 1/2 or 1/4) 6 Set UR gear drop is enough at this level range One of the bigger problems you mention aka the party enforcing is simply a pretty tough nut to crack with the server being made for a bigger population than populates it and an active trading environment - both of which are no longer present. Old farts are so rich they don't really need to trade, and new folk have nothing to offer for it besides secrets, and those are class restricted to attain as they need a high searching skill and the know-how of locations and skill requirements Indeed less people and nearly no market. Personally I dislike the whole forge-secret system however it's worth point it only work well with a large population - as there are too many possible item-secret combinations. ... But it's such a massive amount of work and there is a limited amount of devving work being done on the server as is. There are various things cooked up, and the to-do list is pretty Massive from what I understand - a lot of things would be fun to implement and from DEV PoV it's easy to make lots of changes on the fly if you can be there to fix it afterwards, but it is a hobby project for when there is time, and currently there seems to be no time.. It's hard to make any changes on the server not knowing if you'll have the time to fix it if it ends up being a bad call, or if it's actually needed or just an opinionated loud minority whining, searching for some fantasy from 15 years ago that may not exist even after a change has been made. Hence I didn't post any solution or prerogative. I just asked. |
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Post by desocupado on Oct 7, 2016 22:54:03 GMT
In HG's case there's some drama around calling a LL artifact run or on a split where a SH or PW is involved (this varies in extend). It also discourages making parties (every time that GI takes the first pick your tendency to party up dies a little inside). This can be taken another step further when you consider harder runs (where people might not contribute much). This is not specific to HG at all. In all areas of life, there will always be a level of dissatisfaction when equal pay is given for unequal work. A doctor and a janitor can work from 9AM-6PM at the same hospital every day, but if they had the same salary the doctor would not be happy about it (higher skilled labour is expected to have greater compensation). The same applies to a party environment in gaming; if a team member isn't pulling their weight at all (indirectly linked to the chosen class, but a skilled player can still be very impactful with a low-tier class), there will probably be some degree of resentment if they roll high in the split and take a valuable item. This is just one of the factors in the classic debate about elitism/unshouted runs. Specific isn't exclusive. It's "specific" as in "applied it's case". I agree that it's also about the elitism/unshouted runs. It's also about the grind track i.e. power progression - some people have jets and other have bykes - we can't expect all of them to participate in the same race. To this effect I loved the level 60 cap when I got here and always disliked the tiered subrace system and demigodhood bonuses - it felt like "now we all are racing with jets, who's the better pilot?". |
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Post by Casaric on Oct 8, 2016 2:28:54 GMT
I haven't been here very long- a few months at best, and I'm still trying to get those 'newbie' training wheels off, to limited success. That being said, feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt.
So, allow me to pose a question, if you would. When did it stop being a game, and start being a contest?
Now maybe I just haven't adjusted to the culture of the game yet, and what I'm reading is fairly apropos. It simply occurred to me that- despite the game's interface encouraging cooperation, and building of strong bonds with your fellow players, what you're describing is a mad dash to get a leg up on the other guy. And even if that was the case, what good would that do you? In the end, by trampling down everyone else, you only end up hurting yourself. What's loot compared to other willingness to play with you? Flaunting status that wasn't so much 'earned' as it was 'happened upon'...
Or hell. Maybe I just don't get it at the moment cause it's late and I need coffee. Regardless, there's my two cents. You can use it to throw at homeless people.
-Cas
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Post by somes on Oct 8, 2016 3:41:07 GMT
Now maybe I just haven't adjusted to the culture of the game yet, and what I'm reading is fairly apropos. It simply occurred to me that- despite the game's interface encouraging cooperation, and building of strong bonds with your fellow players, what you're describing is a mad dash to get a leg up on the other guy. And even if that was the case, what good would that do you? In the end, by trampling down everyone else, you only end up hurting yourself. What's loot compared to other willingness to play with you? Flaunting status that wasn't so much 'earned' as it was 'happened upon'... People were really helpful to me when I first join, can you say names of people that have been acting this way? Usually it's often one person acting out like this. |
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Post by desocupado on Oct 10, 2016 4:28:48 GMT
I haven't been here very long- a few months at best, and I'm still trying to get those 'newbie' training wheels off, to limited success. That being said, feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt. So, allow me to pose a question, if you would. When did it stop being a game, and start being a contest? Now maybe I just haven't adjusted to the culture of the game yet, and what I'm reading is fairly apropos. It simply occurred to me that- despite the game's interface encouraging cooperation, and building of strong bonds with your fellow players, what you're describing is a mad dash to get a leg up on the other guy. And even if that was the case, what good would that do you? In the end, by trampling down everyone else, you only end up hurting yourself. What's loot compared to other willingness to play with you? Flaunting status that wasn't so much 'earned' as it was 'happened upon'... Or hell. Maybe I just don't get it at the moment cause it's late and I need coffee. Regardless, there's my two cents. You can use it to throw at homeless people. -Cas It's a context in the same sense that playing a basketball game with friends is. If people aren't really playing at a comparative level, the experience will be ruined. People form a party to do a run: Let's say you are playing the same class in hells (due the tag order requirement / opportunity showing up) one player has a lvl 78 caster, with a bur subrace, double demigoodhood, +16 gear, Paragon spell focus, while the other is a open subrace who just got to 60 (with a good build) in his first attempt at that layer. Now those two characters are of the same class and need the same run but one has 9 DC over the other. In order to low level one succeed in hells (having about 50% spell success) he needs to coordinate all party's dc droppers - cleric( bt -4/5 and prayer -3) bard's curse (about -5) - the high level gets to 100% accuracy just with the bard's curse song. For comparison a level 24 caster (who put all his stats on his DC stat and got Epic spell Focus) has 9 more dc than the same caster at level 1 without an appropriate spell focus. My example was extreme but it's easy to have a 5-6 DC difference.
On the other part, yes, HG isn't a mad dash for loot. However the serious competitiveness for loot starts at about 60 (BUR) with a few exceptions for some LL set drops. Before that it is way more cooperative.
Edit - added a clarification on the first post that my intention isn't to demotivate people (and that they shouldn't be demotivated). People were really helpful to me when I first join, can you say names of people that have been acting this way? Usually it's often one person acting out like this. It's easy to be helpful when it costs you next to nothing (1-59) and you are already doing yourself a favor (getting a relevant tag). For instance I can easily scribe 50 bbod scrolls and give to a new person playing a wizard/sorcerer and explain he should use those to farm bandits / face bosses. Or drag 9 level 40 characters as I solo URO/desert on a level 70 sorcerer. The problem start when there's runs that take 1-2 hours or when you are farming a specific drop. |
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