|
Post by TJ on Dec 1, 2017 12:53:39 GMT
I’ve got like five or six toons that I have spent a huge amount of time gearing and leveling, yet still don’t have an L80. A vault wipe would frankly be a huge turn off, as I’m not interested in losing all of my progress thus far.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 12:58:24 GMT
2. We don't generally give a toot if you multibox. If part of your reward center is maximizing your 'efficiency' in that way, you'll do it; if not, then not. I'm going to open my mouth and probably get pwnt into the ground by Funky, but here goes... I remember an old discussion about why Karsus+RG was overpowered, with some players arguing that it was a necessary tactic to win runs with today's smaller parties. They reasoned that "if you think it's overpowered, then why not just stop using it?" (all of which is basically what is now being said about multi-boxing), and you correctly explained: Because it's the most efficient tactic. Tactics this effective always get the nerfbat, because they kill a great deal of play diversity. The question isn't 'why use it', but 'why does it exist in its present form'. The answer is, 'it shouldn't.' Funky Multi-boxing is by far the most efficient 'tactic' in the game, because it lets players earn loot/tags/experience far faster than anyone not doing it; players who choose to stick to one account are at a gigantic disadvantage compared to those who don't, which is why the prevalence of 'bot armies' has exploded. What made Karsus+RG require a nerf, but not multi-boxing? Not necessarily talking about total removal here, just some level of restriction. As I've said earlier, in my eyes there is no justifiable reason for any player to run three or more toons at once, apart from claiming the 'unfair' boost in efficiency which is denied to people that don't have three or more accounts. I suppose this question is purely for discussion's sake now, because if there won't be a clean slate then it would be too harsh to suddenly restrict multi-boxing with it being so ingrained in the mod already.
|
|
|
Post by dopplegang on Dec 1, 2017 17:23:00 GMT
2. We don't generally give a toot if you multibox. If part of your reward center is maximizing your 'efficiency' in that way, you'll do it; if not, then not. I'm going to open my mouth and probably get pwnt into the ground by Funky, but here goes... I remember an old discussion about why Karsus+RG was overpowered, with some players arguing that it was a necessary tactic to win runs with today's smaller parties. They reasoned that "if you think it's overpowered, then why not avoid using it?" (all of which is basically what is now being said about multi-boxing), and you replied: Because it's the most efficient tactic. Tactics this effective always get the nerfbat, because they kill a great deal of play diversity. The question isn't 'why use it', but 'why does it exist in its present form'. The answer is, 'it shouldn't.' Funky Multi-boxing is by far the most efficient 'tactic' in the game, because it lets players earn loot/tags/experience far faster than anyone not doing it; players who choose to stick to one account are at a gigantic disadvantage compared to those who don't, which is why the prevalence of 'bot armies' has exploded. What made Karsus+RG require a nerf, but not multi-boxing? Not necessarily talking about total removal here, just some level of restriction. As I've said earlier, in my eyes there is no justifiable reason for any player to run three or more toons at once, apart from claiming the 'unfair' boost in efficiency which is denied to non-boxers. I suppose this question is purely for discussion's sake now, because if there won't be a clean slate then it would be harsh to suddenly restrict multi-boxing with it being so ingrained in the mod already. I just find it extremely difficult to take you seriously about this argument, when your signature is a screenshot of you multibox soloing the highest areas of the game with pride. If you think this is such an incredible game ruining mechanic, wouldn't you at least lead by example "at some point"?
|
|
|
Post by diemex on Dec 1, 2017 18:35:29 GMT
Multi-boxing is by far the most efficient 'tactic' in the game, because it lets players earn loot/tags/experience far faster than anyone not doing it; players who choose to stick to one account are at a gigantic disadvantage compared to those who don't, which is why the prevalence of 'bot armies' has exploded. I disagree with this point. I do not think boxing is efficient by any means. Its effective yes... but not efficient. It takes a great deal of effort and resources to manage a team of bots, not everyone can do it. It's far easier to join a team and manage just your 1 toon while everyone else does their jobs, even if you slack it you still get a cut. The guy with all the bots sure gets a bigger cut... if he can pull it off.. it takes quite an investment in time, effort and concentration to manage it... efficient... hell no... who the heck wants that stress trying to manage 8 toons at once... effective well sure... but it aint no free lunch. Can't say I'm a fan of botting in any game, but if its not hurting anyone else... go for it... the game exists to be enjoyed and if you can get enjoyment out of that somehow... far be it for me to rain on your loot parade.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 19:03:05 GMT
If you think this is such an incredible game ruining mechanic, wouldn't you at least lead by example "at some point"? Isn't this literally the question that was addressed in the Karsus quote? And the answer is "no", a person is absolutely allowed to say that something is too efficient while still using it until it's fixed. For example, the DTs have highlighted that they would like to have the Abyss wand glitch (beating Shed gives a free GM wand) to be fixed as soon as possible because it's unfair and too efficient. By your logic that means they should stop taking advantage of it, and instead run GM first every time... but why spend 4 hours doing something that can be done in 2? I also think that Sorcerers are overpowered compared to Wizards, does that mean playing a Sorcerer instead of reincarnating into a Wizard makes me a hypocrite? Here's a Funky quote that summarises this very succinctly: Here's another fundamental misunderstanding. There is nothing inconsistent with taking advantage of a loophole and advocating for it, or a similar loophole, to be closed. It's human nature to take the path of least resistance, and our rules specifically allow such usage. You are suffering from an ontological confusion between acting on what is and advocating for what should be. The fact that, for example, I believe and advocate that Americans should pay higher taxes, does NOT mean that I am in the wrong for not doing so myself when it isn't yet required. Kindly set aside all the misplaced umbrage over this. I disagree with this point. I do not think boxing is efficient by any means. Its effective yes... but not efficient. It takes a great deal of effort and resources to manage a team of bots, not everyone can do it. It's far easier to join a team and manage just your 1 toon while everyone else does their jobs, even if you slack it you still get a cut. The guy with all the bots sure gets a bigger cut... if he can pull it off.. it takes quite an investment in time, effort and concentration to manage it... efficient... hell no... who the heck wants that stress trying to manage 8 toons at once... effective well sure... but it aint no free lunch. I think many players are focusing too closely on soloing examples, and ignoring far more common cases like AFK-tagging. If someone brings 3 toons to a Hell run and leaves 2 of them idle at the start of the map (this is not an uncommon occurence at all), they get 3x as much experience+tags as someone who is unable to multi-box at almost no cost. How is that 'not efficient'? As I've said earlier, in my eyes there is no justifiable reason for any player to run three or more toons at once, apart from claiming the 'unfair' boost in efficiency which is denied to non-boxers. I have yet to really see this addressed. Again, I'm primarily talking about triple-boxing and up. Many people have said that they can't play more than 2 toons at once, so what is the purpose of their boxing 3 or more toons in the first place? Answer: to utilize the overpowered boost in efficiency.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Dec 1, 2017 19:31:43 GMT
the game exists to be enjoyed and if you can get enjoyment out of that somehow... far be it for me to rain on your loot parade. eh, that's the way i like to look at it, but it's a lot harder to say "it doesn't hurt anyone else" when there's impact on sense of community interaction derived from it. here's a normal mid-day EST day in life of HG: now is this to say that without boxing, ppl would be forming runs together and hanging out? maybe not necessarily, but there's no question it definitely doesn't help. as said it's deeply ingrained in the game now, but to rewind a couple years, before it was so widespread (and really only a couple "multi" boxers vs "dual boxers") there was surely a noticeable impact felt on run formation/sense of community as the trend took hold. we all watched it happen, and can blame low playcount/timezone difficulties and necessity, but really u don't need more than 2 toons to help form/succeed even an endgame run w/ 2-3 others; 4+ toons exists only to serve greed and lends itself toward (to paraphrase someone earlier in thread) isolation, not thriving hell+ community. it's true that active/consistent playerbase dropped even more and more since ~2013-14, but really multiboxing stifled need for ppl to work on social networking and the trusty 'ol "do for me, i do for you" run participation trade-off that should properly be an anchor of endgame support and development for guys that are just getting past total newb point (or returning vets that need re-learn hell+ play and reinc ancient broken toons), which is usually where there's the "make it or break it" point for commitment to the game.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 19:38:27 GMT
Can't say I'm a fan of botting in any game, but if its not hurting anyone else... go for it... the game exists to be enjoyed and if you can get enjoyment out of that somehow... far be it for me to rain on your loot parade. I'll also add that it really depends on your definition of what "hurting anyone" means. For example, I have no real interest in joining PUG Limbo runs because they hold almost zero rewards for me - why earn 3-4 canopics per hour when I can earn 30-40 by soloing? The end result is that the PUG loses a strong player, and with enough players choosing to multi-box (alone or in small groups) the PUG run never gets off the ground. I think that this 'hurts' everyone who isn't a DT (who do guild runs regularly) or is unable to low-man the run through multi-boxing. I understand that you only recently returned to the server? Stick around for a few months without multi-boxing, I'm curious to see if your opinion on this will change.
|
|
|
Post by Growly on Dec 1, 2017 20:32:54 GMT
chirality said: "now is this to say that without boxing, ppl would be forming runs together and hanging out? "
Nope, of the 22 players you showed online, 9 were real ppl, 2 were afk, 2 were hardcore, 3 were under lvl 25, me and breen. without boxing I wouldn't even bother comin on at this time because there just aren't enough ppl to do a run. But with it I have been able to build 6 accts, all 4 cores, a tank and a rogue. So when there are enough ppl to do a run, I am able to join with anything and be productive and help it succeed.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Dec 1, 2017 21:00:27 GMT
As I just said in chat to people in game multi-boxing is a symptom of low player numbers not a cause and the same for me I've leveled a load of characters to playability by dragging them giving me more options when needed for a run.
|
|
|
Post by Raj on Dec 1, 2017 22:09:30 GMT
Can't say I'm a fan of botting in any game, but if its not hurting anyone else... go for it... the game exists to be enjoyed and if you can get enjoyment out of that somehow... far be it for me to rain on your loot parade. I feel sorry for you, it's going to take more than the 10 days you played so far to realize how things changes since the last time you actively played, back in 2009. I think that such a long absence and lack of playing (heck that's a longer absence than Funky's) doesn't give you enough experience to comment on the matter and the actual problematics. Before you take this as a personal attack let me say that I value your opinion, and the 'multiboxing history' I'm going to write about started backed by some of the assumptions you made, but it didn't take long before it took a bad turn. I started a different thread to let this one focus more on present and future techical EE debate, read at your own riskI used Diemex post as a way to start the ramble but I really could have quoted many other people, just want to reiterate it's a stylistic choice and a sort of tribute for when I went check his account activity to remember who was this guy and found one of the best threads ever HEY YOU SUCK, started by a random quote from him Go read that great legagy post and imagine the same people dealing with multibox
|
|
|
Post by tega091 on Dec 2, 2017 1:33:24 GMT
There are a few HUGE things are being overlooked with resetting the server database here. 1) Assuming new players will be on even ground(even if same gear) is very nieve, new players on HG simply do not possess the same amount of knowledge/experience as veteraned players have and would already be at a disadvantage. To assume that someone new to HG can build as effectively and play as effectively is just flat out short minded. I mean think back to when you first started to where you are now. 2) Resetting everything would kill the current market and would force X groups(this means same people in same group over and over and over) doing said run until those people have acquired X item and there by that time they will probably be to burnt out on X run to farm it for the market which really makes the "power" difference even that much farther apart especially when you figure in it takes away time from the expeirenced players to teach the new people and explain certain aspects of the mod to them. 3) The people that have played this game for longer are not as intrigued by farming certain runs as new player are and would more than likely rather just leave than do runs that bore them for months or even upto a year or more before finally getting to a point where they can doing runs that interest them again. I have seen this before and it literally drives away players faster then bringing them in. 4) People will have hurt feelings(this one has been addressed). Some people have been playing for 10+ years and to see 10+ years of their free time/life just thrown out the window will create controversy and will ultimately kill morale.
These are my concerns with resetting everything if the option to transfer is avialable. Just keep some of these in mind even if you feel they may not directly affect you.
|
|
|
Post by tank on Dec 2, 2017 2:08:00 GMT
There are a few HUGE things are being overlooked with resetting the server database here. 1) Assuming new players will be on even ground(even if same gear) is very nieve, new players on HG simply do not possess the same amount of knowledge/experience as veteraned players have and would already be at a disadvantage. To assume that someone new to HG can build as effectively and play as effectively is just flat out short minded. I mean think back to when you first started to where you are now. 2) Resetting everything would kill the current market and would force X groups(this means same people in same group over and over and over) doing said run until those people have acquired X item and there by that time they will probably be to burnt out on X run to farm it for the market which really makes the "power" difference even that much farther apart especially when you figure in it takes away time from the expeirenced players to teach the new people and explain certain aspects of the mod to them. 3) The people that have played this game for longer are not as intrigued by farming certain runs as new player are and would more than likely rather just leave than do runs that bore them for months or even upto a year or more before finally getting to a point where they can doing runs that interest them again. I have seen this before and it literally drives away players faster then bringing them in. 4) People will have hurt feelings(this one has been addressed). Some people have been playing for 10+ years and to see 10+ years of their free time/life just thrown out the window will create controversy and will ultimately kills moral. These are my concerns with resetting everything if the option to transfer is avialable. Just keep some of these in mind even if you feel they may not directly affect you. 1. everyone starting from 0, knowledge or not, is healthy for the server. you think you'll see me running lowbies through 1-40, 41-60? nah. 2. what market? the market has been dead since forever. the market is so dead they put in a goldsink aug shop that would bankrupt trump tower after a few purchases. 3. the people who have played this mod forever are still farming LL runs, trust me you cant affect these people and what they farm. 4. ya well, cant make everyone happy.
|
|
|
Post by tega091 on Dec 2, 2017 2:27:51 GMT
1. everyone starting from 0, knowledge or not, is healthy for the server. you think you'll see me running lowbies through 1-40, 41-60? nah. 2. what market? the market has been dead since forever. the market is so dead they put in a goldsink aug shop that would bankrupt trump tower after a few purchases. 3. the people who have played this mod forever are still farming LL runs, trust me you cant affect these people and what they farm. 4. ya well, cant make everyone happy. 1. Health for some servers but not all. Honestly not for HG in the slightest, as it will 100% drive away veterans or discourage them which will keep them more to themselves. 2. The market is far from dead there is more plenty of trading that happens, and there are items avialable via trade currently that wont be aviablable for a LONG LONG LONG time post reset... The aug shop is agold sink and actually increases trading btw, if you dont remember the servers prior to it people had no incentive to farm gold or to trade items for gold... 3. The majority of people that have played for years arent farming LL runs for the loot rather than to get there characters leveled and even then most of the dread doing LL tags as it is mind numbing and not exciting as it is old content. 4. You're right you can't make everyone happy, and IMO hoping upsetting you're loyal player base in hopes of pleasing new players on paper is a hell of a gamble to take with the hopes of fresh server... as that is what it will be fresh server with only new players... that havent proven loyalty and most likely won't show as much loyalty as those who have played 10+ years have... If the intention is to create 100% new community then by all means upset players who have played for years but keep in mind that those who have been here for so long will most likely move on. This has been proven time and time again with video games.
|
|
|
Post by TJ on Dec 2, 2017 2:39:18 GMT
Hey Tank, whats your IGN?
|
|
|
Post by tank on Dec 2, 2017 3:10:26 GMT
Dunno, tank or tanky or something like that, dont send me anything phallic
|
|