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Post by Raj on Dec 16, 2017 18:23:50 GMT
Sorry to hear about your experience gonshiro, but know that doing those tags is not really necessary, just a way to have fun and feel completionist. Should it not be fun for you (because those mobs suck as of now) skip them, go farm xp in areas you can camp and clear efficiently, get to 40 and ask for some immortal help.
And ye solo lowbie tank life sux, think some changes are happening but by then you might be well into legendary levels farming races for new toons... and those toons will be the ones worth collect tags on.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 18:56:02 GMT
Sorry to hear about your experience gonshiro, but know that doing those tags is not really necessary, just a way to have fun and feel completionist. Should it not be fun for you (because those mobs suck as of now) skip them, go farm xp in areas you can camp and clear efficiently, get to 40 and ask for some immortal help. And ye solo lowbie tank life sux, think some changes are happening but by then you might be well into legendary levels farming races for new toons... and those toons will be the ones worth collect tags on. Thanks, that's slightly comforting, but I'm kind of a completionist yeah. 1) isn't reusing the same toon via reincarnation when you find the right race reasonable? I thought that was what people do so was making sure to not miss the tags. 2) Is the idea of a melee dps out of the picture in HG?
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Post by chirality on Dec 16, 2017 19:33:22 GMT
Thanks, that's slightly comforting, but I'm kind of a completionist yeah. 1) isn't reusing the same toon via reincarnation when you find the right race reasonable? I thought that was what people do so was making sure to not miss the tags. It's something vast majority of HGers (RPGers in general?) share, so you're not alone. Just keep in mind there's a mechanism similar to reincarnation called "proxying" (check wiki for details) designed just to satisfy our completionist OCD if you miss tags (or, as recommended, decide to skip them for the sake of moving your career forward to the really great HG, aka after L40). So don't worry about feeling like you can't go back--you can, and you can earn your completionist stripes later on, after you build up a larger foundation of gear/experience/friend networking. It can't be repeated enough that it's not worth anything to ruin your enjoyment/sense of progress/actual progress for the sake of beating your head against a wall trying to solo tags with a toon that simply can't do it. It's reasonable to re-use the same toon, but don't forget about the differing quality tiers of subraces (secret<UR<BUR--heh<XR xD ) and each tier has a minimum level requirement and also requires burning an additional book (or "secret ingredient" in case of secrets) to upgrade to the next tier. 2) Is the idea of a melee dps out of the picture in HG? Not by any means; in fact it's really a critical (no pun!) component of LL+ play, becoming more and more important the "deeper" into the "endgame" you get. Fun fact, a lot of edits/updates/changes/dev planning for last couple years now (and into the future) is highly focused on helping "balance out" tanks vs. "core casters" in regards to desirability and "power"/required status on the game. So fear not. Yet it's still recommended to hold off developing a tank until you've began acquiring aforementioned loot/friend network to pad your vault with, as it makes building/playing/progressing with a tank far more manageable (or, to phrase another way, trying progress with a tank is a huge amount of slow grind for little reward if you lack a caster already). To draw a comparison to the smh-inducing experience you already may have endured in lowbie areas with a tank, LL+ play is designed even moreso to require/favor/cater toward "party play" and the runs that can be "soloed" are really only doable by "casters" or classes (like shifter) that have "caster-like" options. Unfair or unreasonable, I think the opinion varies depending who you ask, but the point is that *most* runs can't be soloed at all, so ultimately it's about solo vs party, not "wizard can solo this but tank can't!". The latter is true in quite a few cases but those runs are the "middle ground" of LLs before Hells and up (which is where the real action/achievement starts happening). At the end of the day, don't forget this is a high-powered/high-magic server based on D&D, so there's only so much you can really expect a tank to be able to do solo, both in terms of her own offensive power vs hordes of enemies, as well as her survival vs myriad special attacks etc. It's one thing for the big guy with a sword to cleave thru a squad of goblins at L10 when the worst they have to worry about is L2 spells aimed at them and everything is crittable with low/zero immune/resists, but quite another to imagine the epic-levelled barbarian with a +13 sword and no weapon buffs, support buffs trying to cleave thru a horde of powerful outsiders, worrying about seriously powerful offensive spells/special attacks and seriously tanky damage resistance of those foes. Put another way, compare the success of a L20 wizard in PnP vs a pit fiend with that of a tank vs a pit fiend--heck yeah, the wizard has (due to spells! bbod, summons, bigby, timestop [wish ] to name a few) more options, tactics, and ability to "solo" such a foe than the L20 fighter that can't do much except hope to disarm and not roll 1s vs various special attacks/spells. Of course a (especially overpowered-for-run-level) properly built/geared tank can indeed be nigh invincible and have impressive enough damage output to slowly carve their way alone thru dozens of mobs in an LL run, map after map, but with few exceptions (again, some middle/low LL runs that tank can reasonably solo when geared properly, even "at designed level, but even the best players who choose this route are doing it very slow and it's usually an option of choice/solo fun/nothing else to do, there's no expectation of doing it as fast/easily as if they logged another toon), this is generally a case of "toon OP for the run". Same applies for casters of course (usually "soloing" is hella faster/more efficient when you're OP-level-for-run), but really there's also examples too where a tank at-level for run might even have easier time soloing than a caster (maze/Dachy for example--if caster lacks a spellbook to damage him, gluck; a self-buffing tank geared properly that can survive breath damage can hack away safely spamming heals just as fast or faster than a caster can spam SR drop->exotic dmg->run cheezily to hide in corner to rest->rinse/repeat)
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Post by drunkenboastor on Dec 16, 2017 19:43:22 GMT
I have soloed every prell tag with every sort of class except loth, moad and immo. I have done it with hard core characters that only had what they could find, and with with characters that had unlimited consumables from endgame areas. Some tips: Tip #1 - Get HGX, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your enemies before you fight them is a huge advantage and a saver of time. Tip #2 - Be prepared to play a generalist role. There are some instances where a spell caster would do better as a melee, like Hel and Cohorts tag. A note for caster bards, with all their buffs they very deadly with any two handed weapon up to around level 40. Tip #3 - Be prepared to use a weapon you are not focused in to defeat an enemy. Dragons are weakest to piercing damage, if not using a two handed piercing weapon, you will do 0 physical damage. Dragons pretty much only take magic and divine, so be sure to be using a weapon with those damage types. Tip #4 - 1-40 is a great representation of how the end game is. Tank with no buffs and poor gear will do very poorly in all phases of the game. Spell casters, even with just mediocre gear, who know what spells to use against their opponents, will be effective. Tip #5 - Use your endgame consumables. Except for Fey and Elemental planes potions, all the endgame potions are usable at very low levels. Draughts, defense cubes, secret wands, etc... are all usable at low levels. Tip #6 - Random items with little to no properties on them can have augmenters that cast spells added and are usable at fairly low level. Example blank item with level 50 fom aug is usable under level 10.
Besides banning Time Stop spell, there is no changes needed to any component of PRELL tags.
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Post by chainlink on Dec 16, 2017 20:41:25 GMT
Sorry to hear about your experience gonshiro, but know that doing those tags is not really necessary, just a way to have fun and feel completionist. Should it not be fun for you (because those mobs suck as of now) skip them, go farm xp in areas you can camp and clear efficiently, get to 40 and ask for some immortal help. And ye solo lowbie tank life sux, think some changes are happening but by then you might be well into legendary levels farming races for new toons... and those toons will be the ones worth collect tags on. Thanks, that's slightly comforting, but I'm kind of a completionist yeah. 1) isn't reusing the same toon via reincarnation when you find the right race reasonable? I thought that was what people do so was making sure to not miss the tags. 2) Is the idea of a melee dps out of the picture in HG? You're not stuck at 29 you can take 30 as you get tags up to and including the level requirement and you keep getting exp so you can push on with levelling after you get the accomplishment.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 17, 2017 9:00:22 GMT
For whatever it's worth, we just tweaked a lot of problem lowbie bosses to make fighting them more enjoyable and realistic (including some of the ones that are being complained of here).
Funky
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Post by woqued on Dec 17, 2017 10:05:53 GMT
For whatever it's worth, we just tweaked a lot of problem lowbie bosses to make fighting them more enjoyable and realistic (including some of the ones that are being complained of here). Funky Sounds good! Looking forward to it.
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Post by madzapper on Dec 21, 2017 17:11:25 GMT
I would love to see the requirement to use UR books backed down to level 40 or perhaps just "immortal". I would also like to see the drop rates increased for UR books in early legendary runs.
* As it is, the playstyle and jump in difficulty from level 40 areas to legendary areas can be steep. Having the ability to upgrade subraces when making that transition will help new players.
* Level 50 is very close to level 60 and you are doing the same runs at 50 that you are probably doing at 60. It's hard to justify using the UR subraces at 50 when you are so close to being able to use BUR subraces.
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Post by Raj on Dec 21, 2017 17:35:26 GMT
That assumes legit newbies own UR books at 40, and have BUR ones waiting for them at 60. Neither happens if not due to handouts, and the cap was introduced exactly to combat that behaviour. Also, there're already secret subraces for 40-50, and it's not like a couple stats points and feats suddendly make newbies veterans and fix all other issues anyway.
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Post by madzapper on Dec 21, 2017 17:51:38 GMT
That assumes legit newbies own UR books at 40, and have BUR ones waiting for them at 60. Neither happens if not due to handouts, and the cap was introduced exactly to combat that behaviour. It does not assume legit newbies own UR books at 40. It proposes that we increase the availability of UR books and drive their price down making them more available and affordable at level 40. Right now, not having a UR book at 50 and not having a BUR book at 60 tells me that I just go to 60. Nevermind with using UR books at all. There are, but they are also very difficult to get ahold of. Arguably harder to get ahold of than UR books if you don't know what you are doing and have no guide. I think that is a bit broken as well. You can just pop into the shop and buy a UR book from the chest way easier than learning to navigate the maze after killing a dragon. LOL Well, that's kind of an understatement. Of course at lower levels STAT points mean a lot more than at higher levels. Simple percentages calculations will show you that. UR subraces also come with additional feats. I'm not going to say that newbies are going to become veterans. I'm saying their fun will increase and they will be more excited about entering legendary levels.
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Post by Enius the White on Dec 21, 2017 18:34:07 GMT
I would love to see the requirement to use UR books backed down to level 40 or perhaps just "immortal". I would also like to see the drop rates increased for UR books in early legendary runs. * As it is, the playstyle and jump in difficulty from level 40 areas to legendary areas can be steep. Having the ability to upgrade subraces when making that transition will help new players. This is right on the money. When HC first dropped, I raced a new HC toon to 40 in the first week, mainly solo, as did quite a few others. Immo took a while to coordinate, but was still reasonable. From there to the first LL run, never mind hell run, took forever. As madzapper points out, the non-cheese "jump in difficulty from level 40 areas to legendary areas can be steep", even for experienced vets. This is why a lot of experienced players gave up on HC at exactly this level range. It was just too slow/tough for them. This early HC path parallels what a new player to HG might face: no money, gear, helper toons, low population to party with, etc. They, however, do not have the incredibly powerful factor of experience on their side. "Fixing" the near-necessity for a drag through this level range by removing access to UR/BUR sub-races - ergo disadvantaging new players and making this progression even more drag dependent - was a mistake.
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Post by desocupado on Dec 21, 2017 19:13:33 GMT
Logic that was valid when level 60 was the cap, before uber equipment should be revised. Truth be told any UR without absurd quality and augs is worthless.
35+ - UR equipment begins to drop (ultra rarely) - including subrace books (secret subraces become UR, and all of them drop much more frequently). //people get excited to progress as they get a gear they cannot equip yet 41-60 - UR equipment drop consistently (lower tier becomes rare or inexistent) some areas revised for tanks (foes have AB/AC reduction while SR and saves are kept intact) 60+ - UR subrace books stop dropping
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Post by dopplegang on Dec 21, 2017 19:17:00 GMT
I tend to agree with Enius, at level, the 40 - 60 runs can be a bit of a challenge. Its fun in most regards for it to be a challenge, to be honest. However, one issue I see that can be resolved is the extremely rare implode immunity accessible to players 40 to 60 until after its needed. The lvl 40 plode immune shield is so rare you should call it an XR, it sold in the auction for 900 million gold last time I saw it, that was months ago, and considering I have played preLL content weekly for the last 2 or 3 years and I have seen only two of these shields in my entire three years playing I would have to say this shield is to rare to be considered an option to anyone, on top of the fact that it is not a flexible option for half the population, being a shield. The other options for plode immune are BUR only, or light armor with limited use that is tagged so you can not use it until after you have taken the risks without it.
I totally understand the intent to present risks and reward people with immunity to these risks after the work is done, but maybe the drop rate of the plode shield should be improved slightly, or another plode immune item can be added to the loot table?
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Post by elgrathforestwalke on Dec 21, 2017 20:35:58 GMT
Maybe add plode immunity to the mord ring that drops at end of desert.
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Post by madzapper on Dec 21, 2017 21:12:36 GMT
The lvl 40 plode immune shield is so rare you should call it an XR, it sold in the auction for 900 million gold last time I saw it, that was months ago, and considering I have played preLL content weekly for the last 2 or 3 years and I have seen only two of these shields in my entire three years playing I would have to say this shield is to rare to be considered an option to anyone I'm guessing that it's because it's a level 33 item that drops in areas that drop that range of loot. If you farm those areas, you will find one without too much difficulty. If the item were adjusted in the mod with something that pushes the level of PRESERVATION to level 40, they'd be all over the place. To give more insight into that, consider how long people stay in areas for tags 33-37 vs level 40 areas to level 60. How often do people loot the 33-37 areas over and over looking for loot? In contrast, the areas that drop level 40 loot are from level 40 to level 60 (and beyond?). Why would you farm 33-37 areas when the gear gap jumps dramatically at level 40 and at level 40 you can wear the maximum version of any level 40 gear with randomization. At level 33, you can only wear specific gear due to ILR. Due to randomization, however, the loot is often pushed to level 40 requirement. This leaves you just "holding out" till you get to 40 and get MUCH better gear.
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