Shapestrong

[Ralkain]

Hi,

I like the shapestrong idea to make Barbarians more effective, but can the 30 levels of Barbarian be relaxed to Epic Barbarian (i.e., 21+ Barbarian levels).

The rest of the limits are fine, 35 total levels and item quest, but 30 Barb seems too much. Saying they have to be an Epic Barbarian seems better and allows for better Barbarian class mixing (what little it can do).

Ralkain/Dave.

[Balduvard]

Personally I think that the current level requirements for the class-specific items are well set. It requires you to be committed to that class in order to reap the benefits.

Overall though it depends on the intentions of the staff here. Regardless of the class level requirement, the ability modification comes with Mighty Rage--which can be taken before you reach 30 levels. Not going all the way just means you don't get to use the shapestrong form.

[Ralkain]

balduvard said:

Personally I think that the current level requirements for the class-specific items are well set. It requires you to be committed to that class in order to reap the benefits.

But my point is the commitment is uneven. For instance, requiring 30 levels in Wizard isn't the same as requiring 30 in Barbarian. Wizards like to take more than 30 in their class, so its not restrictive *at all*. However, Barbarian is a very weak class and they *don't* like to take 30 levels in it. Their few combos beg for at least 11 levels in 2 other classes, so 30 for them is *much* more restrictive (heck its more restrictive than a 38 Wiz requirement).

Yet you don't want to make it too easy, and 21+ in Barbarian isn't. Its still more restrictive than 30 Wiz, but it gives them the leeway they need for the few class combo's they have. And still has the RPG feel needed to justify the ability (i.e., only Epic Barbarians have what it takes to become Shapestrong).

Overall though it depends on the intentions of the staff here. Regardless of the class level requirement, the ability modification comes with Mighty Rage--which can be taken before you reach 30 levels. Not going all the way just means you don't get to use the shapestrong form.

Now here it sounds as if you agree, but I'm not sure (i.e., the extra levels simply for the form shouldn't be unnecessary since the importan mods come earlier).

Ralkain/Dave

[FunkySwerve]

Something like using a large weapon one handed will definitely always require a major commitment. The 10 level leeway allows a full 10 lvls of prestige class on top of that, which given the other bonuses barbs now get, it pretty powerful. Their rage will become even more powerful once we finish correcting will saving throws across the mod.

Best,
Funky

[Ralkain]

Let me start by saying that I have no bias here and am simply exploring things. I've never played a Barbarian in all my NWN years, never found a use for them they are so weak. I'm simply exploring the enhancements here to see if its worth trying. So please bear with me and don't take any of the following as complaints (they aren't).

funkyswerve said:

Something like using a large weapon one handed will definitely always require a major commitment.

No doubt, it should, I guess the subtheme of this thread is what defines a major commitment. As I said 21 levels in barbarian is more major a commitment than 35 in wiz. When class A likes to take lots of levels in it, its no sacrifice, when class B only likes a few, its a huge one.

The 10 level leeway allows a full 10 lvls of prestige class on top of that...

Not if that prestige class requires a level in another class, like the most common barbarian combo (RDD). Even if you only take the minimum Bard/Sor needed (most folks like to take a few more levels of bard than 1) you can only get 9 RDD.

I know a large weapon one-handed is nice, but experienced players know its not the damage die that's the big weapon advantage, its the bonuses. Loosing that last RDD level isn't worth it, your damage is much better with that RDD level than with a 2-handed weapon one-handed...

Plus 2 to hit *and* damage is much better than +.5 at worst to +2.5 at best on damage. Even thought the damage bonus is close, that extra +2 to hit will likely mean at least 1 more attack will hit that round that didn't before. So what's an extra hit mean, +40-300 damage/round at higher levels depending on what kind of hit?

...which given the other bonuses barbs now get, it pretty powerful. Their rage will become even more powerful once we finish correcting will saving throws across the mod.

I have no idea what bonues you're talking about here, I assume from this post and another posters earlier post that Barbs get some stat bonuses here at some point. Exactly what this is could change my analysis entirely, but from the previous poster it sounds as if it comes much earlier than L30 Barb (if so then the analysis doesn't change).

Again, this isn't a complaint, and I think an important thing here is I hope the server doesn't assign across the board level definitions for what constitutes a significant commitment.

They should vary from class to class, IMO 4 classifications would work (2 for base and 2 for prestige). If the class likes lots of levels (i.e., Wiz/Sor, Monk, etc), then set the bar high, but for classes that don't like a lot of levels in it, the bar should still be high, but not as high. And in general both bars should be lower for prestige classes (since they have less possible levels).

Ralkain/Dave.

[FunkySwerve]

These restrictions DO vary by class. The RDD was one of the reasons I set the barb req at 30. Not only is that a fairly nonsensical class combo, IMO, since barbs are supposed to hate magic, it is also a potentially overpowered one. The mighty rage feat gives a barbarian +8 to hit and damage - the equivalent of +16 strength. This is temporary, but I didn't want it stacking with RDD bonuses. The shapestrong ability is a bit like icing on the cake, though I think you are underestimating the effects of the larger weapon (think scythe). Aside from the obvious WM scythe/tower shield combo, large weapons have a greater 'mighty crit' bonus than other weapons in this mod, making their crit damage better as well. I'd suggest playing one first, then suggestng alterations, you'll have a (slightly) better chance of selling me on it.
Your argument re: wizards etc WANTING to get to lvl 40 in their class is also a bit flawed. The only reason that's the case is because of their custom abilities (spells) on this server. I decided to cap all the good stuff at 40 for balance reasons, but could have easily set it lower. Without all the custom spells, you'd be seeing a lot more lvl20 wiz/lvl 20 clerics and such.
Your point that reqs are different depending on class is well taken, but already factored into the current requirements. As far as future reqs, expect to see lower reqs for melee classes than for casters (like they are now). The only reqs I know for ceratin are the paladin's 'top' power, which will be lvl 25 req, and the pale master's reqs, which will vary between lvl 20 and lvl 30 depending on the ability.
Best,
Funky

[Ralkain]

funkyswerve said:

...since barbs are supposed to hate magic,...

You must be old like me , Barbarians don't hate magic in 3e (in 1e they did). They only distrust "book magic", they like sorcerers, bards, divine casters, etc.

The mighty rage feat gives a barbarian +8 to hit and damage - the equivalent of +16 strength.

Cool.

This is temporary, but I didn't want it stacking with RDD bonuses.

But doesn't it? You can get Mighty Rage long before level 30 Barb.

though I think you are underestimating the effects of the larger weapon (think scythe).

Always do, all my WMs use scythes, though I've always thought it strange the 2 best weapons in the game (scythe and kama) are farming implements .

Aside from the obvious WM scythe/tower shield combo,

I'd be more concerned about the double scythe wielder if I were you, how strange is that

I'd suggest playing one first, then suggestng alterations, you'll have a (slightly) better chance of selling me on it.

Just trying to convince myself that playing one is even worth it. Its definately not in the regular game as other melee classes do what the Barb does better than the barb, but this server makes it almost worth trying.

Your argument re: wizards etc WANTING to get to lvl 40 in their class is also a bit flawed. The only reason that's the case is because of their custom abilities (spells) on this server.

Wiz's like to get to 35+ on all servers I've seen, caster levels help penentrate monster SR. Though without the spell mods and improved summons and such, you would see more 20 sometings than you do now.

Anyways, as I've said its not a complaint, thanks for all the server modifications, especially the caster ones, they are great. Even though I think the level 30 Barb requirement will keep me from playing one, I think the Barb improvements you've made are great for the game and the server, keep up the good work.

Ralkain/Dave.

[FunkySwerve]

ralkain said:

I'd be more concerned about the double scythe wielder if I were you, how strange is that

You can't dual scythes as a barb, large/medium is the biggest possible weapon combo. As to the str bonus stacking with rdd, that was more an explanation why it was set up as it was originally. Its implementation was changed after the initial setup from being 1 skill requiring level 30 to 2 skills (once being just an enhanced mighty rage). I decided that allowing the improved rage at levels below 30 was probably ok, and I haven't seen any real problem with it since.
Best,
Funky