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Post by Ralkain on Aug 17, 2005 18:54:50 GMT
Hi,
Some sites allow you to relevel your character at any time (this doesn't work with RDDs though do to the stat mods).
I'm not saying we should open it entirely here, but I do think it would be nice to allow someone to fix a character mistake without loosing all their levels or at least a lot of them.
The tree makes fixing an immediate mistake nice by allowing you to re-do a level you just did, but how about a magic lamp or something to allow you to re-do all your levels (i.e., it drops you to 1st level and sets your exp to where it was at the start allowing you to relevel from 1 to where you were).
Of course this item would be in a drop somewhere where you'd have to go adventure for it. Also make it work like the leveling books so that it can only be used once per character (magic genie will only ever grant one character one wish).
What do you think?
Dave.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 17, 2005 19:08:30 GMT
Interesting. I'm of the school of thought that says you should learn from your mistakes, and releveling stymies that imo, but I'll talk with the DM team about this. Funky
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 17, 2005 19:51:48 GMT
Interesting. I'm of the school of thought that says you should learn from your mistakes, and releveling stymies that imo Maybe mistake wasn't a good word to use on my part. Not all desires for releveling are due to player build mistakes. There are other reasons as well, among them unfamiliar server changes (that you didn't find out until later), etc. Ok, thanks. I'm normally against releveling as well (as you know plan my builds out to the last skill point before playing). But I think this would allow for a nice 1 time adjustment for whatever reason, but require a small adventure to even do it. Dave.
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Post by hfb on Aug 18, 2005 12:35:16 GMT
My first thought for a lamp such as this would be to build a power-leveling character for the first say 20-30 levels or so, and then use the lamp to skim my way past those levels on a build that is really difficult to get to 40th. Say one that starts really weak and then becomes buff once everything comes together (like any RDD character, for example). I tend to be a bit of a masochist when it comes to such things and the pain of playing through the difficulties are part of the "fun". I also tend to be a bit of a (obsessional) planner when it comes to character building and I could see myself doing a two layer build spreadsheet: pre- and post-lamp.
I guess I see it as an intriguing idea, but not as something that should see the light of play in HG.
Just my two zhents. YMMV.
The Dancer
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 19, 2005 11:53:51 GMT
My first thought for a lamp such as this would be to build a power-leveling character for the first say 20-30 levels or so, and then use the lamp to skim my way past those levels on a build that is really difficult to get to 40th. Perhaps put the lamp into a cave and the user can't exit the cave unless they have the same classes they did as they entered the cave? That way they'd have to have the same class combinations, but slightly different order or magnitude of levels in each. Dave.
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 19, 2005 11:58:18 GMT
My first thought for a lamp such as this would be to build a power-leveling character for the first say 20-30 levels or so, and then use the lamp to skim my way past those levels on a build that is really difficult to get to 40th. Say one that starts really weak and then becomes buff once everything comes together (like any RDD character, for example). Btw, is this even an issue? Is there anyone on this server who had a buff upper level build, but wouldn't play it because it was weak on lower levels? Leveling is easy in parties, I don't know of anyone who wouldn't play a buff highlevel build because of low level weaknesses. That being said, the cave thing might be good anyway. Reset you to level 1 if you try to leave with different classes than you came in with. Dave.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 19, 2005 13:10:20 GMT
HFB does make a good point. Most of my builds double or triple in power at level 40, and this would allow me to take a totally different and much easier route. Instead of taking a monk level at 40 for the wisdom bonus on my druid shifter, to use the example of my last character, and maxing out skills that only the monk class has, I could start out with it at level one, breeze through, and relevel with the same classes at 40, getting the same build with much less work. Total cheese. Same goes for every other build I've done that was any good I think, definitely the last three (the only ones I remember with specificity. And requiring the same classes does nothing to stop it. Funky
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Post by Grogbot on Aug 19, 2005 22:10:51 GMT
We can take Funky's argument a step further ...
"Lets go do <<where ever>>"
"Hey we really need a mage"
"No probs I'll just convert my paladin" *visit cave* tadah - L40 blaster sorc . . . a quick trip to the bank vault and all is set . . .
Not that *I* would ever do this of course *cough cough*
Anyway - I vote for no relevelling - start again and transfer gear if you have to ... took me 5 goes till I got my Druid/Blackguard past Level 11
Grog
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 21, 2005 10:19:15 GMT
After conferring with some of the dm team, there was total consensus. No releving book, for a bunch of reasons, though some of the biggies were covered here. Don't despair Dave, sooner or later one of your ideas will make it! Funky
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 22, 2005 14:53:47 GMT
We can take Funky's argument a step further ... "Lets go do <<where ever>>" "Hey we really need a mage" "No probs I'll just convert my paladin" *visit cave* tadah - L40 blaster sorc . . . a quick trip to the bank vault and all is set . . . This would only work if that character was a sorcerer already and even then once you finished leveling him that time, he's done and can never be releveled again (so I don't seen an issue with the above). Player mistakes/tweaks aren't only what it protects against, it helps protect against server specific items/changes that the builder may have no way to know about at build time and many times doesn't find out til level 40. For instance, what if the Loth Helm provided Self Conceal V. Now a player without said knowledge has a nice SC build and gets to level 40 only to find out that a helmet gives out what he has and would have rather known that up front. Too late now, even though he'd rather re-do/tweak his build with this in mind, he now must start all over for no fault of his. A real game example of this might be the Ranger Rapier, perhaps a ranger took WF and EWF in a different weapon before finding it, picked(and many variations on this theme). Now one can say, tough you learn the server the hard way, but it takes a long time to know what all the upper level items are. Additionally, this person isn't trying to abuse the system, just trying to make their build work within the system. Currently, they can continue to play their character, but constantly be bugged by how much better it could be. Or start over. I just thought there was a better, limited, solution in-between those extremes that allows for a one time adjustment when presented with new radical data. It doesn't make a specific difference to me, as I have no builds I'd re-work at the moment, but when I was a server newb it would have helped a couple of times. Builds really are server specific and until you know the server, you'll likely throw away a few builds and occasionally even after you know it. Seems like that time could be better spent adventuring rather than power leveling. Dave.
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 22, 2005 15:12:01 GMT
After conferring with some of the dm team, there was total consensus. No releving book, for a bunch of reasons, though some of the biggies were covered here. No problem, just an idea to help server newbs. I'm not sure I understand this quote, you have accepted a few of my ideas. Besides it not being true, I'm not sure how to take it. I can see 3 reasonable ways to take it: - as an insult...
- to discuorage more ideas...
- to encourage more ideas...
I always feel its the duty of server regulars to help newbs and present DMs with interesting ideas(whether or not they are accepted). I hope that's not at odds with what Higher Ground wants. If so, just let me know and I'll stop. Dave.
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Post by Argon on Aug 22, 2005 16:29:37 GMT
Don't worry Dave, I'm pretty sure Funky meant it in the kindest, most encouraging way. I think everyone appreciates input and brainstorming, even if in the end they end up disagreeing or not using our suggestions.
On this one, I also don't like the idea of being able to drastically redo builds. If Iget to 40 and find something new, I start a new & different guy. (This is kinda what happened with all the subraces. Now we've got millions of new builds going out there, I'm redoing half of my guys all over again with a subrace....) I think the good news is, the DM's do a great job balancing the server, so even if you do end up wishing you'd done things a little differently, chances are it won't be a MAJOR problem, and your guy will still be playable.
(For the record, Dave, I'm with you all the way on the DD Defensive Stance thing. But I trust the DM's more than I trust myself, and so even though I wish it'd change, I'm happy they at least consider it, even if they come to different conclusions than me.)
So to make a long post short, keep posting ideas!
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 22, 2005 19:23:45 GMT
Don't worry Dave, I'm pretty sure Funky meant it in the kindest, most encouraging way. I think everyone appreciates input and brainstorming, even if in the end they end up disagreeing or not using our suggestions. I hope so, that's they way I like to work anyway, toss ideas out as they come and see what floats. I never care if mine sink. Me either, I never like it when sites open up re-leveling anytime. I was hoping to find something reasonable in-betwen. Yeah, but when you just need to tweak a build due to a server item, rule, or condition, that seems a bit harsh (not knowing you needed ewf rapier instead of scim as a ranger isn't really the player's fault). On the other hand, radically changing the character seems wrong too (I was hoping for a middle ground . Indeed, the lamp wouldn't help there anyway. Some of my builds are being re-done using a subrace too. The only problem is that the Secret races seem to be the best choice in about half the cases meaning you can't work on them til you find the secret . Of course this is part of the fun, but its also part of the angst that you can't do a build you want to do for a few months until you find the right secret . Similarly I'm finding the banks being closed somewhat fun as some folks are scrambling for cash for all those new sub-race builds and are going on cash runs and such. However, its also a source of angst sor some I'm sure . I was just expousing this point to another player yesterday who was complaining about their class being nerfed. I pointed out that it wasn't and that the DMs do a great job balancing things (thought nothing is perfect, this is the best I've found). As I said, I'm never married to my ideas, doesn't matter to me if they use them or not. I too thought the DD thing would fly since it was based of their bard lich lyrics addition and since DDs are weak offensively, but it didn't cest la vie. Some of my ideas have been or are being implemented, others not, no biggie. Thanks, I planned to (and notice I did with the greater stoneskin thread), unless they ask us to stop. Dave.
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Post by archmage on Aug 23, 2005 5:27:31 GMT
Having discussed this relevelling idea, and your DD stance ideas with Funky peroonally in great detail, I can indeed insure you we do review all the ideas we get via the forums, and we always encourage more ideas. I'm absolutely positive Funky meant it in a way to encourage more ideas. For example, the mass seller was a player idea and in my opinion is a great addition to the server, same with many, many others. Keep the ideas rolling !!!
archmage
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 23, 2005 5:55:15 GMT
I definitely did NOT mean it as an insult, I just seem to recall having nixed 4 or 5 in a row, is all, and none of them bad. Call it guilt, since you offer so many ideas and I've poopoo'd a good number. LOL Anyway, Im working on the EV/stoneskin thing. Best, Funky
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