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Post by chirality on Mar 22, 2020 22:12:51 GMT
Why is there an SP arti for casters but no AB arti for tanks?
Casters get the choice of improving their spellpen, as well as the rest of the artis, while tanks have no comparable "primary statistic, that's not an ability score" artifact.
Casters, as it's been mentioned for years, already pretty much get the king's ransom of "value added", when it comes to the permanent consumable upgrades--sure, tanks get a big ol buff from pandect, but nothing close to what shield pandect does for casters; there's the epic tomes (which has been suggested to create an analogue for tanks) that are so important that they form a foundational piece of the meta. Now, again, this isn't to say that tanks don't get to munch on tasty treats too. However, I feel like some tank treats are fairly redundant, cumbersome->unworthy to use, far too niche in application, or just a goofy combination of all . There's the spiny fish, for instance. Cool but urgh.
Anyway, casters get a lot of cool jank, then they also can pick any DC-stat artifact, or SP artifact, which is really a great option because a) SP is invaluable as a gear boost, since it is so hard to increase and so important--comparing here to AB for tanks; at the cost of 1 pt per 2 stat pts, it's very hard to increase and very important; b) as the game evolves, reincing and picking a new artifact adds an extra layer of optimizability--comparaing again to AB for tanks; it's true that being able to pick ultrapoisonimm or +1 AC or +1 AB is useful flexibility, but I think +1 SP or +1 DC is more like a choice of +~4 AB or +~4 AC (didn't spend lot of time on that analysis but I'm gonna go with like, no less than 3-5 pts of AC/AB per point of SP/DC, depending on the variables of comparison, and allowing for a bellcurve that im smudging a little)
Just a thought. Could be a mechanus thing maybe.
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Post by arek on Mar 23, 2020 2:43:02 GMT
I'm not sure what tomes I would give to a tank. I thought about 3: - Wonderous Tome of Ancient Lore: Epic Prowess
Advantages:- Nothing depends on Epic Prowess except for Legendary Weapon Focus, so getting that from a tome doesn't cause build problems.
Disadvantages:- Some BUR and XR subraces already get Epic Prowess for free, which makes this tome useless for them unless the builds using them have some sort of feat-swap available that uses Epic Prowess feats.
- It only frees up a single Epic feat, which may not be useful for all Tank builds.
- Wondrous Tome of Ancient Lore: Greater Weapon Focus
Advantages:- If given independently of other Weapon Focus feats, gives a flat 2-AB bonus on a feat that nothing depends on.
- If given along with Weapon Focus (my preferred state), this frees up at least 1 and possibly 2 pre-epic feats on a tank, or gives a tank a potential secondary weapon option depending on how the build's feats line up.
Disadvantages:- If given along with regular Weapon Focus, it increases build complexity, and may not be a viable option for all builds since many other tank-oriented and weapon-oriented feats require Weapon Focus to be taken as a feat first. Chief among these is Epic Weapon Focus, which may need to be taken in Epic levels depending on the feat layout for a particular tank build. If EWF is also granted, that doesn't fully fix the problem, and potentially creates other problems.
- If given independently, it only frees up a single pre-epic feat, one that not all tanks even take.
- Wondrous Tome of Ancient Lore: Epic Toughness - gives 2 tiers of Epic Toughness to a tank when consumed. This is a separate tome I thought of as an alternative to the above Tomes
Advantages:- For most builds it's a flat 200 HP
- Helps greatly with xDD builds by freeing up a couple of epic/legendary feats for them, which tend to be extremely scarce on such builds.
Disadvantages:- For most builds, this is just 200 free HP, which really isn't all that much.
As for an artifact...How's this: AB Artifact (name TBD): When consumed grants the Legendary Prowess feat, which gives +2 AB. Can also grant some other "feature" like +50 Listen, the ESF: Listen feat (pernamently), a few uses/day of a maxed Invisibilty Purge, or even a High-DC Draw Foes toggle (think 127+ DC, which is pretty easy to get on a DWC - this could also be skill dependent, using the highest skill between Taunt and Intimidate to function, tho not all tanks get access to either of those, so there'd probably have to be some sort of bonus applied). -- arek
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Post by arek on Mar 23, 2020 2:55:04 GMT
Another tome: Wondrous Tome of Ancient Lore: Legendary Weapon Specialization. This tome grants the user the Legendary Weapon Specialization feat (only) in one weapon for which the user already has LWF when used. (note: Does not grant WS/EWS). Advantages: - Direct increase in tank DPS.
- Frees up a Legendary Feat for fighters and fighter-splash tanks.
Disadvantages: - May be too much to grant for certain builds.
- Reduces the value of fighter splashing (but doesn't completely eliminate it - you'll be down 6 damage without the base feats...more if PWS specifically requires them).
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Post by simpetar on Mar 23, 2020 5:41:35 GMT
Advantages: For most builds it's a flat 200 HP Helps greatly with xDD builds by freeing up a couple of epic/legendary feats for them, which tend to be extremely scarce on such builds. Disadvantages: For most builds, this is just 200 free HP, which really isn't all that much. More like 40 HP. 100 HP per feat is Paragon Toughness nobody ever touches.
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Post by woqued on Mar 23, 2020 11:36:36 GMT
Pandect of LSA:Listen (worth two feats, enables many crappy melee classes and alleviates race burden on many melees)
Epic Tome of LSA:Listen
Epic Tome of Weapon Spec + EWS (still requires feat investment to LWS/PWS, but screw fighter splash hurting all the classes that can't splash fighter - aka the crap ones).
Epic Tome of LSA:Hide
Epic Tome of LSA:Parry
-- Done. PS - "tank artis" or melee artis give more beneficial immunities/resists than DC artis from Wis/Cha - Int one is good but that will have to wait for wizard buffs to be solid. I don't mind the artifacts being different - but melees lacking an epic tome -style epic book is a downer.
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Post by magecat on Mar 23, 2020 14:03:45 GMT
LSA: Discipline - For the Dexxers
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 23, 2020 17:06:41 GMT
Why is there an SP arti for casters but no AB arti for tanks? Casters get the choice of improving their spellpen, as well as the rest of the artis, while tanks have no comparable "primary statistic, that's not an ability score" artifact. Tanks do have ab artis, because ab is based off ability, while spell pen is not. Spell pen will be becoming less immportant (ie more situational) and save more. Funky
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Post by simpetar on Mar 23, 2020 18:14:41 GMT
Why is there an SP arti for casters but no AB arti for tanks? Casters get the choice of improving their spellpen, as well as the rest of the artis, while tanks have no comparable "primary statistic, that's not an ability score" artifact. Tanks do have ab artis, because ab is based off ability, while spell pen is not. Spell pen will be becoming less immportant (ie more situational) and save more. Funky If you are drawing this analogy, would you consider making artefact for beating concealment? There is a limit to how much tanks can invest in Listen (and they well should), just as many casters are capped in how much SP they can get (same here). Yet there are numerous and common ways of lowering SR, but only 2 ways to lower concealment: Invisibility Purge and Mass Spell Destruction.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 23, 2020 18:21:45 GMT
We'd consider it, sure, though I'm not sure the analogy holds. Concealment is already less common than SR, and we don't want to step on rangers too much. Thoughts welcome.
Funky
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Post by chirality on Mar 23, 2020 18:38:24 GMT
I tried to illustrate above how I'm roughly equating AB to SP, or at least drawing a comparison for the purpose of making my point. It's because, despite AB admittedly being tied to ability, it has a 1/2 progression, and is therefore similarly difficult to raise, and at an expensive cost ratio (example str arti, 2 pts of ability from the artifact, yielding 1 ab and 1 damage, is barely even important, even than right at an AB breakpoint[1 AC would be more a more tense comparison, but due to the scarcity of characters running at an AC breakpoint where 1 AC > other artifacts, and lack of a remarkable immunity, dex arti remains lowvalue], whereas the trueimm:Stun is the primary reason the arti is taken).
Line 2, not sure how to dissect that, other than severely questioning how SP could ever become so much less important that SP arti stops being a powerful option. The point made also is precisely that the existence of SP *and* DC artis, favors casters in a "update may change the meta" environment. Again, since ability artifacts add such a marginal->virtually always inconsequential AB/AC boost, tanks don't really have a choice of picking between boosting AC or boosting AB to match the meta (since 1pt of either isn't really impactful enough to matter ingame->base a decision on). Instead, tanks match the meta by choosing whichever artifact gives them the most valuable status immunity. In this way, I suppose, they do get their own shinies as I said casters do, but I still think it's a shame that a mage or cleric, for example, could pick between boosting 2 different offensive metrics, optimizing their build for a given zone or set of zones, by favoring SP or DC. Tanks have a similar dual-layer offensive setup, with AB and Listen, but again there is no choice to pick between +1 AB or +5 Listen (roughly equating SP to beating conceal and DC to beating AC).
I really don't see how any new change could impact SR in a way that makes it no longer a determining metric for caster power. If you look at the shift from hells to abyss, in terms of less conceal and more AB, it's a noticeable change and did have some impact on the meta, but even still, tanks do their absolute best to max Listen. Abyss introducing a requirement for higher ABs and less of a "too short to enter" Listen barrier than hells, did not stop LSA:Listen, salamander augs, and VoVs from completely dominating a tank's career, from buildtheory to double demi. I wouldn't imagine anything would make casters stop maxing their SP at all costs, or if that is the case for a new zone, it certainly won't affect the rest of the game, aka 100% of it rn, where SP is not a choice but mandatory. Even before Limbo SP was a common choice due to being more powerful than ability based DC (trying to make this point in OP) and more important. it's just that sp arti sucks to farm and SR isn't as much of an issue in a party and PSP+59 or 60CLs makes most casters more than competent to handle most zones without specifically boosting their SP.
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Post by woqued on Mar 23, 2020 19:06:44 GMT
We'd consider it, sure, though I'm not sure the analogy holds. Concealment is already less common than SR, and we don't want to step on rangers too much. Thoughts welcome. Funky It's fine to have several sources if Rangers remain the best at it. They have it as aoe aura, others could have a singletarget option, or in smaller values. Just because arcanes and bards can bestow doesn't mean we don't bring druids to NB. As for Rangers, they aren't bad even if we disregard Invisibility Purge - that's just their oomph wow power. The analogy is a bit iffy because tanks can land occasionally even on a 80% target even with nothing, whereas there are many targets completely invulnerable to spells without SR drop - it's a matter of "less effective" and "ineffective". However regarding Concealment being less common than SR - Concealment is common enough to make it mandatory. In literally all of the endgame runs except to an lesser extent in Aboleths, there are multiple main baddie targets with very high concealment making dropping it (via listen or otherwise) about as close to mandatory as it gets. Only in Limbo did we start to feel like going without Invis Purge was felt like complete ass, but that has more to do with the overall sloggy nature and culture. Going without listen on the other hand is complete ass everywhere in the mod. I would personally not implement an anti-concealment artifact simply because it would be hard to balance it between too weak and too strong - if its anything at or above 3% it would feel mandatory, below that it would feel too insignificant to take over the defensive qualities offered elsewhere and simply not noticeable enough without loggers. It doesn't feel much but it ends up being much kinda deal. If concealment penetration were to be implemented, I'd rather it be a class feature for something like Gnomish Inventors or making use of the skill Spot and the fancy quick action mechanic HG has, at lesser values than what Rangers provide with I-Purge.
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Post by KnightErrant on Mar 23, 2020 19:39:36 GMT
Could finally introduce new ego augments on items for all melee classes ? Some of them could have lower conceal abilities ? Possibly AB boosts for some too ?
(I know this would probably be too random for most powergamer-min/max types who wouldn't want to be saddled by gear slot decisions over "just having the ability always" with artifact/pandect slot)
.02 KE
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Post by woqued on Mar 23, 2020 20:18:03 GMT
Could finally introduce new ego augments on items for all melee classes ? Some of them could have lower conceal abilities ? Possibly AB boosts for some too ? (I know this would probably be too random for most powergamer-min/max types who wouldn't want to be saddled by gear slot decisions over "just having the ability always" with artifact/pandect slot) .02 KE Ego should never be the only way to gain a very critical property. Having the option between a really really rare random AND a set item would seem far more likable: i.e to get the power you can gain it via a set/arti/pandect, and if you get lucky or grind forever you can minmax your setup to get that same power via a godly ego item to raise your character to greater heights. But the AA ego for example is a really naughty example of this being a bad thing - such power shouldn't be on items that rare with no other way of attaining it - no guaranteed way to look for it. Just get lucky or have a bad character is not a fun place to end up in. I actually like the idea of this type of ego as an idea - but it shouldn't be the only way, rather an endgame chaser mechanic on top. Use the arti, WOW I FOUND THAT THING YAY!!11 Now I get to drop this and do this change and that change and now my character is just that much stronger and more versatile. That's the rush and goal that keeps people coming back and doing more. Edit: but then the "i can't do it because I'll always be subpar because that very unlikely thing is the only thing that would make it worthwhile" causes desperation and people to walk out - if the goal is too far and too unlikely and completely unattainable in other ways, it becomes an insurmountable grindwall for many that isn't worth approaching or climbing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 21:05:32 GMT
I completely agree.
RE: AA ego needs to be adjusted, those damage dice built back into the class, and make bonus fletches or something be what the AA ego gets, and then by making the fletches more valuable, you create value in the ego. Think turner and turns.
RE: Attainability, we need to take core functionality out of items, think AA ego, or the elysium plate for our lovely threaders. Things like this need to be removed from gear, built into the class, alternatives created in swap these out. Make the classes function stand alone. Woqued is spot on.
RE: Anti-concealement things, I also agree with Woqued here. Mathmatically speaking if this anti-conceal stacked with invis purge, I'd use it no matter what it, 1% giving an effective 9% is HUGE when you look at the number of melee swings over the course of a P2 hardmode or something. You've just created a mandatory item and have nullified the choice component. Take it in the direction of spot.
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AB Arti?
Mar 23, 2020 21:12:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by Methes on Mar 23, 2020 21:12:22 GMT
Prepared said RE: Attainability, we need to take core functionality out of items, think AA ego, or the elysium plate for our lovely threaders. Things like this need to be removed from gear, built into the class, alternatives created in swap these out. Make the classes function stand alone. Woqued is spot on.
100% agree. Gear check system is already huge. Might be a good time to remove Wrap and add some kind of ?feat? alternative.
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