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Post by horbag on Apr 13, 2020 21:26:02 GMT
i do not see what would improve when you would do this at all... it will get messy to keep track of what tag you need on what toon, it will be unlogical that you can go to a high penalty area like cania befor even going to tia and lets be fair who would want a level 55 on a cania run?...
in my eyes all i see are people who are tag greedy and just don't want to help people if they don't have any benefit from it
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Post by Methes on Apr 13, 2020 22:13:13 GMT
Time benefits What could be helpful in this analysis is dividing the playerpool into three categories and how they would be affected. Hell runs can be split into randomly announced single runs, randomly announced multi-layer runs and Hell trains (runs done in a day or over multiple days)
- Everyone can hop on any run they need the tag for when it's announced and they are around. However, to get the tag, it also must be the run next in order for them. After change - Everyone can still hop on any run but unless they've already done that run, they will always get the tag, saving time of everybody
- Everyone can say "I'll druid this layer ONLY IF you do the next/previous one as well" - note that only in the "next one" version taggers will get another tag, the whole run will just be longer. After change - Everyone can say "I'll druid this layer ONLY IF you do the other layer as well" - whole run is still longer, you have a leverage, other people will tag depending on whether they completed the other layer or not. Which is basically the same situation as above where if 9 people need Phleg and 10th player wants to do Min first, 9 people do a tag free run just to get Phleg done after.
Now regarding Hell Trains:
The ones with loads of time: - Can participate in 'Hell Trains' and reap all the benefits of saving time of party scheduling and loot splitting After change - Can participate in 'Hell Trains' and reap all the benefits of saving time of party scheduling and loot splitting
The ones with a few nights/week: - Can participate in 'Hell Trains', although they MUST hop on at the right time and usually take part only for a run or two, cause the train goes on when they're not available After change - Can participate in 'Hell Trains' and while they're not around for the whole thing, they can get as many tags as they have time for.
The ones with one night/week: - The chance of particular layer happening that night is slim, theoretically if a Hell run gets called that night they only have 1/9 chance of it being the layer they need. - 'Hell Trains' have little to no use for them After change - If a Hell run gets called, they have diminishing chance of it being the layer they need based on how many they completed. Which is still a lot more than before. - If they catch the 'Hell Train' at any point they get the benefit from it.
As you can see, the change benefits mostly people with very little time. People with loads of time are almost unaffected, and if they are, only beneficially by larger playerbase being available for their runs as well. Given how old the game is and how the average age of playerbase gets higher, time available for gaming goes down.
Potential issues: Writ would have to be reworked, probably allowing the player which layer he wants to skip AND decide whether to allow using multiple writs - ZOTS Skull would have to be reworked - ideally showing completed layers - ZOTS Potential balance issue - you could skip all the layers and go straight for deep runs to get a tag first to be able to wear tagged gear. Given how relatively easy it is to get BUR gear, I don't view this as too bad, apart from: Asmo gear should only be available to Demigods, not to those who have Ness tag. I don't know how it's setup right now, so - potential ZOTS
To adress a common notion mentioned by others in various ways: "it is just not logical eather! you should do them in order! " - Logic in this case is only based on Lore. Game mechanics state otherwise as any other run (except prince fights and Thids/Zerial) gets rewarded by tag. Hells do not. "i agree with glad 100% do not fix what is not broken just because it would be "easier"!!! " - Things that have not been broken years ago might be broken today with fewer people playing. Systems lowering the likelyhood of players playing the game are broken.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 22:24:05 GMT
The more I think about this, the more I still agree that removing the order will be a good move. I was just throwing out possible issues. I still think book end Tia and Ness and keep first time through in order.
It remains to be seen how run formation will be effected but I would like to see the change.
Run formation still gets hung up on finding a bard or druid so I'm not sure there will be anything different really.
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Post by woqued on Apr 13, 2020 22:40:40 GMT
Thanks Methes for writing a decent, informative post. I was about to go all ad-hominem and call someone out on their odd accusations which are obviously blatant bullshit displaying complete lack of empathy and astonishing lack of reading comprehension while showing up with nothing but negative glee in their eyes doing some weird attempt to thwart a good suggestion - this behaviour is presumably caused by some weird glitch in their brain causing them to only see the worst in others in some sort of twisted attempt to feel better about themselves and their inability to count 9 checkboxes. Or perhaps that is what I am guilty of in this weird world, now I am unsure, but maybe a forum !ignore function will serve me better than any babyrage fit I am throwing.
PS. People can bring 55s to Cania even now just fine. They don't because they aren't sorry sacks of shit unless surrounding circumstances make it a reasonable thing to do. That should be the same after the change. You can also do that in Aboleths, Elysium etc, but most people choose not to inflict pain on their fellow players or themselves by going out of their way to be useless, it is not very fun for most people. If they attempt they are refused, if they fail to see the error in their ways it is best to walk in the other direction and part ways anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 22:43:47 GMT
@ Methes, based off posts, I think most are in favor of keeping the initial first, or first two demi iterations as the linear system and then allowing the true freedom once this has been accomplished. This eliminates your tag concern, but it does apply if the linear system is not maintained for at minimum the initial cycle. Love your post. And as you said, players like me are entirely unaffected by this change. It helps players with less time, or preferring to spend less time maximize that time.
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Post by somes on Apr 14, 2020 6:14:43 GMT
I think something does need to change about the ordering system. The current one punishes new and busy players too much.
I also questioned the whole need to do so many hell cycles. Even to this day I love doing hell runs and doing all the cycles gets me to burn out on them sometimes. It feels unnecessary at some point which makes them less appealing, and that's a shame because I think most of them are great runs.
Even the dreaded Cania feels like a proper hell run. It is not actually a hard run, but its difficulty comes from external factors and that's what makes it fascinating. How nobody wants to do the run there is often a core missing, a toon with a horrifying build comes back from the vault attic, and people that can't stand each other will come together just so they can get their damn Cania tag. Sure, maybe I hated Cania when I was doing them, but I have way more stories and memories from all the runs with people who just couldn't roll high enough for a writ.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 6:20:49 GMT
Thoughts on reducing number of hells cycles needed to five as well? Would you even consider this Funky?
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Post by dopplegang on Apr 14, 2020 9:56:01 GMT
given that the writ allows you to skip a required tag, the writ would not work in its current function if this was implemented, for any toon that has already done the progression for demi x1. It might even still be viable for demi toons if a toon with 7 layers completes one more layer that is needed, making 8 layers and activates the writ before the boss fight of that 8th layer to make up for the missing 9th layer = +1 demi. I think the if/then logic zots for that might be a bit complicated.
To be clear, I do not at all believe that a writ should be an item that you can activate and select a hell level and instantly give you the tag for that level. That would be a huge mistake.
It also seems like nessus should still be the end of any cycle. But to be fair if you start at nessus as a demi 1 and kill asmo then work your way down to tia, you still had to do the hard work of completing a nessus run, so you can call it 6 or call it a half dozen, it is equivalent.
in short, I agree that demi 1 should be sequentially progressive, possibly demi 2 as well, the other demi cycles i defer to mob opinion on.
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Post by dopplegang on Apr 14, 2020 12:35:45 GMT
i do not see what would improve when you would do this at all... it will get messy to keep track of what tag you need on what toon, it will be unlogical that you can go to a high penalty area like cania befor even going to tia and lets be fair who would want a level 55 on a cania run?... in my eyes all i see are people who are tag greedy and just don't want to help people if they don't have any benefit from it spreadsheets are not difficult to make toon name |tia|dis|min|phleg|styg|malb|malad|cania|ness joes supertoon x x x x x x x x
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 13:26:03 GMT
Funky also said the skull would be reworked so one could always check that too.
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Post by Enius the White on Apr 14, 2020 17:08:51 GMT
Concerning run formation, just a quick reminder about this excellent underused HG resource: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/board/39/party-schedulingEveryone posting in this thread clearly reads this forum, and sharing runs here is a great way to ameliorate run formation issues.
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Post by arek on Apr 14, 2020 22:35:14 GMT
I see a potential problem that affects both the Scheduled Hell Trains and the people with little time who may want to join them after this change: One of the things Mathes indicated is that people might not have time to come/stay on for a full run. If this means that the hell train call is for a 3-run set (usually done for Tia-Dis-Min and Phleg-Styg-Malb) but the player only has time for 1-2 of the runs, this causes some problems depending on how it's handled (I know how the DTs handle it, but am not sure how Prepared's group does it): Situation #1: Player comes for the first 1-2 runs of a 3-run set: This means that either extra time must be taken mid-run to split for that player, the player must ask someone to pick for them, or the player gets his/her tags, but no loot. Situation #2: Player comes for the last 1-2 runs of a 3-run set: This may mean that the player gets to pick from loot from all 3 runs, or it may mean that (again) they get no loot, or be required to not pick set loot from runs they didn't attend, or may disqualify them from getting loot entirely, depending on the player and the rules set forth by the run leader. It also means that the run team may have to drop a bot from the run, if applicable, or that the player can't join at all if the run really filled. Situation #3: Player comes for the second run of a 3-run set: This has all the problems of both of the above situations, tho with the speed of the runs being done as triples it should be pretty rare. I think these situations may be what's giving gladi8or pause, as they could affect DT runs. Our runs have clear rules, however, in that if you aren't present for 75% of the run you get no loot (so showing up to 1-2 layers in a 3-layer hell run means no loot). I hope this clears up some of the social problems a bit better (these problems already exist, but would be made more common by the changes). -- arek
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Post by desocupado on Apr 14, 2020 22:47:23 GMT
So you are saying the outdated loot system is at fault for making runs harder to form?
If only there was some system like canopics instead... Or some system like personal drops from feywild.
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Post by horbag on Apr 14, 2020 23:46:08 GMT
indeed the DT's have very strict rules on it, i too sometimes require people who come late on a tag train just eather not pick from loot, or don't pick set loot from the run they did not do. luckily i rarely have had anyone complain about it, that being said, and apart from me definitely not liking this idea, i do not see that if the runs are not mandatory to be done at order there would rely change much. the tia-dis-min, if run with a good group, lasts about 2 hours and would still be the first set to be called, loot splits would still be the same and rules would also still be the same, 75% participation or no loot... is it then worth to put in the time to change this we can otherwise spend on other things?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 23:56:17 GMT
Depending on how the runs are going and group consensus my group will either do a split, if we split sometimes their are rules on what they are eligible for or not based off participation or the player gets no loot. In the event of the latter, the player is informed in advance we are doing a single split and can make the determination in advance whether they'd like to join or not.
This change creates no problems for loot because the scenarios apply already, and as long as players are aware and informed in advance they can choose what they do with their time and what is valuable to them. Again, this enhances the ability for players who value tags and doing things to have opportunities for them.
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