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Post by woqued on Apr 23, 2020 21:05:35 GMT
IMO, the only potential negative impact to run formation is exactly what I stated before - the change would magnify already-existing issues....slightly. Given that the organized run groups already have rules in place to handle these situations, this is likely a non-issue, and the positives here outweigh the negitives. That said, there is a potential issue with out-of-order tagging making things too easy for newer characters. The solution here is that once you have the boss tag for a particular layer, you may always enter the next layer regardless of skull progress and obtain its skull tag (along with the boss tag, if applicable) should you not already have it, with the sole exception that getting the skull tag for Nessus requires that you have all other skull tags, and the possible requirement for all layers beyond Avernus that you have the skull tag for Avernus, tho I don't think that's actually necessary since you still have to run it (it's much more necessary for Nessus, at least conceptually, and possibly coding-wise as well). This would make it so that you have to run the hells in order your first time (iirc you already have to unlock them in order on your first run through, you're not allowed to "help" on a layer that you've never been qualified to enter, for example, at least without a writ). As for writs...Leave 'em alone unless the code relies on tag order somehow (I doubt it). People above have already stated how that should work. -- arek You can do helper runs, only tia has to be done first. You can enter any other hell after that as you wish, you just gotta tag in order. I don't understand why out of order tagging makes things too easy for newer characters, or quite frankly why that would be a problem as long as they still need to complete the runs and new players do not have access to writs, new system or old. I also don't see a need for writs to be removed if there is no code/script based issue in leaving them in, but don't really value them too highly either - they're a nice giftwrapped surprise at times to help another in need, or yourself in times of "I really don't want to do Stygia, I really really don't want to do Stygia" - but honestly they are rare enough to be nothing more than as prep said, tradebait, something you juice up a trade with - and not even very high value at that. Imo, anything that eases Hell tagging is strictly an upside - the hell rewards being gated behind so many repeated runs that don't even have a changing spawn layout is unfortunate - knowing all spawns by memory 100 runs ago made the last 50 feel quite uneventful, even with the (too) rare random spawns. It is outdated content, we have bigger fish to fry and if people have the time and energy to do all the required runs, all the glory to them but it is not something that we should aim to make difficult by anything else other than the challenge that the runs themselves pose to those who enter them. There are many other more up to date and more interesting zones to explore and learn, repeating hells ad nauseaum is not a positive nor is making people sit and wait for those runs to happen. This change is strictly organizational one - there is no "challenge" function to it. This is as QoL as it gets, considering Hell sets outside Nessus are for the most part irrelevant after Tia as well (db weapons trump dis, fairly average burs outperform hell sets excluding a couple outliers like strongheart/planewalker/tia caster items by a large margin, etc).
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Post by arek on Apr 27, 2020 8:44:31 GMT
The real problem here isn't that it makes it easier for new characters - out-of-order tagging in Hells makes things easier for everyone. The real problem here isn't even new characters, it's new players. A new player might get their second (or heck, even their first on occasion) character into a Tia or Tia/Dis run, and then later notice a Malad, Cania, or even Nessus run forming and realizing they can actually enter any layer decide to join without realizing whet they're getting into. If they're still in mostly UR gear with the odd BUR or 2 it may be difficult for them to even stay alive that deep, much less contribute. And if they come on, for example, a Sorc or a Druid, how do you think that run will go? If it's just a Sorc, the run may be a bit slower but it'll probably be alright. A druid, tho? A dead druid can't make things green for the other casters. Tanks are even worse in some ways (better, tho, in that the party isn't typically relying on them to complete the run). By making it so that they have to do the layers in order on their first pass, it gives newer players time to realize how the Hells (and other endgame areas) get harder as you get deeper, and to get the gear they're going to need in order to survive in these harder areas. This could be important if, for example, we get an influx of new players once EE support is added. And this gives me an idea for the Writ of Passage: Writs no longer grant the ability to skip a layer. Instead, when used, they grant access to all layers of Hell provided you have a Skull. If feasible, it should also allow for out-of-order tagging on the character it's used on. It could also be made to both bind to playername and not dissapear on use, tho that further diminishes its value. Basically, this would allow veteran players to at least assist runs on new characters, with out-of-order tagging being available as a bonus. -- arek
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Post by dopplegang on Apr 27, 2020 10:03:36 GMT
The real problem here isn't that it makes it easier for new characters - out-of-order tagging in Hells makes things easier for everyone. The real problem here isn't even new characters, it's new players. A new player might get their second (or heck, even their first on occasion) character into a Tia or Tia/Dis run, and then later notice a Malad, Cania, or even Nessus run forming and realizing they can actually enter any layer decide to join without realizing whet they're getting into. If they're still in mostly UR gear with the odd BUR or 2 it may be difficult for them to even stay alive that deep, much less contribute. And if they come on, for example, a Sorc or a Druid, how do you think that run will go? If it's just a Sorc, the run may be a bit slower but it'll probably be alright. A druid, tho? A dead druid can't make things green for the other casters. Tanks are even worse in some ways (better, tho, in that the party isn't typically relying on them to complete the run). By making it so that they have to do the layers in order on their first pass, it gives newer players time to realize how the Hells (and other endgame areas) get harder as you get deeper, and to get the gear they're going to need in order to survive in these harder areas. This could be important if, for example, we get an influx of new players once EE support is added. And this gives me an idea for the Writ of Passage: Writs no longer grant the ability to skip a layer. Instead, when used, they grant access to all layers of Hell provided you have a Skull. If feasible, it should also allow for out-of-order tagging on the character it's used on. It could also be made to both bind to playername and not dissapear on use, tho that further diminishes its value. Basically, this would allow veteran players to at least assist runs on new characters, with out-of-order tagging being available as a bonus. -- arek I don't think there are many at this point who fervently argue on the side of allowing new characters, whether new player or old player, to run through hells the first time without doing it sequentially. And while your new idea for the writ of passage is quite unique and creative and a great idea overall, it seems like the unintended consequences of that would have quite an impact. How do you think that would impact the current dynamics of hell runs?
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Post by woqued on Apr 27, 2020 11:28:17 GMT
I think you don't give new players enough credit. I don't think many people join a run they know nothing about and not asking a single question about it, and that is when the older people can, should and will chime in. The newer player or the party itself can then make the decision if he is ready or not, and if he wasn't he will learn it. You can enter deep abyss without doing shallow, it won't be a good experience. That was never a problem but a boon in my eyes. There are plenty of people who enter Tia at 55, get rushed through tia->cania without learning a single thing already - the dynamic wouldn't be that different.
Personally I don't think the gap between a new player and an old player is that large. Most people bring their new guys to deep hells even after a long break not remembering a single thing, and they are just fine with it and most of us are fine with them performing poorly. Now here we are, artificially limiting that from new players when old and returning players do it all the time. Meh.
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Post by arek on Apr 27, 2020 11:39:05 GMT
There are 2 things the change I'm proposing impacts: - Players will no longer be able to skip layers. The new writ functionality doesn't affect this, since Funky has already stated that unless someone can convince him that it is feasible balance-wise to keep the current functionality, said functionality is going to be removed. If you think you can convince Funky to keep writs as-is, by all means, argue for it - I would like writs to keep that functionality, too. It just doesn't seem likely to happen.
- New characters would be at least able to assist on later runs once they clear Tia and get their skull, provided the player has a Writ available or can trade for one. Ideally they'd also be able to tag out-of-order, but that's going to depend on whether that takes extra zots (or more likely whether allowing or disallowing takes more zots). Either way, only players who've run Nessus many times are likely to have one of these, and by the time a newer player manages to get one, s/he will know what s/he is getting into by hopping into deeper runs, which is a Good Thing.
If you mean about the removal of the ability for new characters being able to assist on deeper runs without getting a tag, the method I presented and that Funky has already stated he'll use already does that, for reasons stated in my previous post. Remeber, the hells have actually gotten harder since they were released, in part to compensate for +14 and +16 items. This increased difficulty does, however, make it harder for newer players to contribute in deeper runs until they've amassed a decent selection of BURs - which requires that they farm Oinos, Rona, Hells, or other Endgame areas - None of which are particularly easy for a newer player to farm. For that reason, making it so that newer players need to progress naturally through the Hells is actually a Good Thing, and the new Writ functionality will make it possible for veterans to have a shortcut that allows them to take new characters to deeper layers early if they so choose. -- arekP.S. And yes, it's kinda up to the player and the party to decide if a newer player is ready for harder runs. If a party thinks a newer player is ready for deeper runs, there's nothing stopping them from giving/trading a writ to said player to enable this. Remember, the ability of new characters to assist on deeper runs by default is probably already going away.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2020 13:14:03 GMT
I actually like your idea a lot Arek. If the following are true:
1) Non-Demi characters must TAG in Hell in order on their initial Demi cycle.
2) Demi iteration 2 and beyond can be done in any order. 2b) Whether this ultimately requires Tia and Nessus as book ends, or totally free range tagging doesn’t matter. 2c) PERSONALLY, I think once the initial cycle is done, Tia and Nessus should not be required to start / end a cycle.
If 1, 2 and at least 2b are true, though I fully support 2c as well, I think shifting Writs from a free layer to unlocking the initial Demi cycle once a skull is acquired is an acceptable idea. I think though that this really would support 2c also being true for this to be a thing though.
Ultimately, it won’t impact me either way whether the initial cycle has to be done in order or can be done free for all if players have writs and writ functionality is changed to that. I like either idea. And if this change is made, writs allowing this is a very handy carrot new and veteran players alike who want to maximize their time could appreciate.
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Post by arek on Apr 28, 2020 17:43:19 GMT
I agree with you on Tia, prepared, but not on Nessus, for a couple of reasons: - It's actually the act of killing Asmodeus (a god) that makes your character a Demigod in the first place (lore reason).
- It would likely take quite a few more zots to make it so that anything other than Nessus could actually grant Demi status (which would be required if you no longer have to do Nessus last).
-- arek
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 28, 2020 17:59:12 GMT
There are 2 things the change I'm proposing impacts: - Players will no longer be able to skip layers. The new writ functionality doesn't affect this, since Funky has already stated that unless someone can convince him that it is feasible balance-wise to keep the current functionality, said functionality is going to be removed. If you think you can convince Funky to keep writs as-is, by all means, argue for it - I would like writs to keep that functionality, too. It just doesn't seem likely to happen.
It's not even that, so much, as the fact that the writ as implemented will basically be useless. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 28, 2020 18:00:36 GMT
I agree with you on Tia, prepared, but not on Nessus, for a couple of reasons: - It's actually the act of killing Asmodeus (a god) that makes your character a Demigod in the first place (lore reason).
- It would likely take quite a few more zots to make it so that anything other than Nessus could actually grant Demi status (which would be required if you no longer have to do Nessus last).
-- arekThis. All of it. Why makework for something that already works and makes more sense? Funky
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2020 18:08:57 GMT
That works for me. As I’ve previously stated, any of these changes will have no impact on me with how I run the hells. A lot of positive things have been discussed here which will benefit other individuals and improve their time / reward ratios which I feel is a positive which is why I have shared my support for it. Whatever you’d like to do is completely fine.
If you’d like to delete writs entirely, then do so. I personally don’t agree with you Funky that they’d be worthless in the new system at all. But, if that is what you want go ahead. I know other players do use them and would continue to and would appreciate that benefit because again, it saves them time.
If we want to have cycles be totally free range and have Nessus be the only bookend, that is great too.
The points I feel would be most beneficial to the community I have advocated for and explained the basis for those opinions which you all can review if you’d like.
Which points are you going to move forward with on implementation Funky?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 28, 2020 18:33:28 GMT
If you’d like to delete writs entirely, then do so. I personally don’t agree with you Funky that they’d be worthless in the new system at all. It's not really a question of agreement. As coded, they won't do anything. I could recode them, but I don't know that it's worth it. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2020 20:56:32 GMT
Got it. That makes a lot of sense. I say delete them then and move on.
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