Attack Bonus Accountancy

[hfb]

Greetings all,

In reading the forums and in game I have heard tell that the maximum bonus to attack is +20 and that the in game character sheets lie. I would apprectiate some clarification regarding this matter--not so much with the lying, but with the +20 maximum.

The basic question is: What stacks and how high?

(If I missed an extant thread that clears this up, please direct me there.)

More specifically, are any of the following the case:
1. base attack bonus + stat modifier + feats + 20 = net attack bonus

2. bab + sm + f + weapon mod + 20 = nab

3. bab + sm + f + wm +20 max/bonus type (enhancement, morale, divination, etc.)?

4. some other formula???

Nits to pick:
1. Where do weapon master bonuses fit?
2. Are there issues with AA arrow bonuses (+14 bow plus +13 arrows are easy and more than +20; they stack cleanly in pnp, but...)?
3. Weapon attack bonuses and enhancement bonuses, do they stack (I don't think so, but...)?
4. Do any other bonuses stack with True Strike?
5. Are 5 "more" points of attack bonus applied when Power Attack is used? (That is, say you have +25 but only 20 are used because of the cap, then do the other 5 come into play if you are power attacking which would be a net +0/+5 to att and dmg.)
6. Is +20 the most one can get out of a dex/str bonus (which would make a 60 from a rapped out 1/2 Ogre RDD just as useful for attack as a 50)?
7. I am considering building a Bard 8, HS 5, AA 27 soon. My calculations thus far are as follows:
ab = 27
dex = 20
fts = 4
Bow = 14
Arrow = 13
Total = 79

Is this accurate? Is the maximum buffed ab i could have then (79 + 20 =) 99?

Thank you in advance for any assistance in clarifying the muddle that is my mind--a not so primordial ooze it seems.

Good hunting,

The Dancer

[Balduvard]

Attack Bonus calculations are rarely fun, but I'll see what I can do here. The +20 cap you heard about is the maximum that can be achieved through weapon enhancements/magic spells (i.e. True Strike).

That said, a general formula for AB should be:

bab + stat modifier + feats + weapon enhancements/magic spells (max of 20) + WM bonuses (if applicable)

An example we'll take my AA, who has a bab of 30 (1 bard/9 fighter/30 AA), 48 dex for a +19 to AB, Enchant Arrow 15, an attack bonus on the bow for +14, plus the feats for Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus and Epic Prowess. Now without any spells to add to that I have:
30 + 19 + 15 + 14 + 4 = 82

Casting Divine Power on this character gets me a +11 to AB on my character sheet...when in reality it's only +6 because I already have a +14 weapon. Also that one level of bard gets me a +1 to attack when I use bard song, but that's about as short lived as true strike. Also for ranged users, there is the +1 to AB for Point Blank Shot if within 15 feet. As for your questions:

1. The WM bonuses are +1 every three levels at L13WM, and they should stack with everything.
2. As far as I know, the two stack (since one is feat and one is enhancement) which is why AA's have such a high AB.
3. Weapon enhancement and attack bonuses do not stack, which is why you shouldn't see weapons with both.
4. I'm not all-knowing on spells, but assuming there is something that could give a direct bonus to AB, True Strike already gives you +20--or fills up the rest of the +20 bonus based on what you already have.
5. Power attack actually sacrifices AB for damage, so if you activate Power attack you lose 5 AB to gain 5 damage.
6. The higher your stat, the higher your bonus to AB. As far as I know there is no cap on this.
7. Everything in the build looks alright (though I didn't look into the BAB for that build). Once you have all that, with the bow you're using the max bonus you should be able to get from spells (true strike) would be +6, and a +2 bonus on top of that when you use your bard song. So your final AB calculations should be:

27 + 20 + 13 + 14 + 4 = 78 + 6 +2 = 86.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Adjusted wording (italics) and added an additional AB bonus from feat (Point Blank Shot).

[Bakchuda]

Just a quick nitpick on your answer to point 3, there are some weapons (at least in HG) that have both +attack and enchantment, and the higher of the two is what applies, AFAIK. The Greatsword named "Biter" is an example, it's in the imports store. Also, there used to be a greatsword in Rips called the Paladin Greatsword that was a Holy Avenger and +5 to attack, which looks like a total of +10 for a paladin (+5 enchant from HA), but not the case either.

There are not many of these items out there, but they do exist, and are confusing, and they cost more for a useless stat.

[archmage]

Just to clear something up, yes we're aware of the weapons with enhancement and ab on them. I can further tell you this was done intentionally to preserve game balance at certain levels. This way we can set the item requirement of said weapon to where we want it to be without while having the item do exactly what we want it to. Is it perfect? No, but then neither is Bioware, so we make do with what we have. If there was just a box in the toolset that said, enter required level to use, you wouldnt see those weapons with both.

[Bakchuda]

Well, that's a whole lot more reasonable than explanations I was trying to come up with.

Thanks.

[FunkySwerve]

balduvard said:

.
5. Power attack actually sacrifices AB for damage, so if you activate Power attack you lose 5 AB to gain 5 damage.

Pretty sure that what he was asking was, if you have extra ab that is not being applied because of the +20 cap, do you get a 'credit' towards power attacks penalty? I haven't tested it, but if it works the same way stat bonuses and penalties do the answer is no, no credit.
Funky

[hfb]

Greetings,

Thanks for your efforts. Much appreciated, I assure you.

Funky was right about my intent regarding PA and I didn't think there would be a credit, but Bioware "physics" is a curious subject to study / live under.

So, to summarize, raw bonuses always stack and do so without artificial limits. They include bab, stat mods, feats, and class features (wm, aa, bard song, etc.).

Beyond this, "weapon mod + (20 - weapon mod) = 20" is the maximum that can be added to the raw ab.

If that looks right, then I've got it and thanks again for the help.

Good journey,

The Dancer

[hfb]

Greetings again,

Hopefully the last nit to pick on this one: Rangers

Do ranger and harper scout Favoured Enemies stack?
a. for say Bane of Enemies feat
b. for dmg bonuses

What kind of dmg is added with Favored Enemies?
What kind of dmg is added with Bane of Enemies?
Does the +2 from Bane of Enemies stack with with the bonus to hit from the weapon used (if it has one)?

Happy hunting to all and to all a good fight,

The Dancer

[FunkySwerve]

hfb said:

So, to summarize, raw bonuses always stack and do so without artificial limits. They include bab, stat mods, feats, and class features (wm, aa, bard song, etc.).

This is dangerous terminology. Stats always contribute to ab, but the max stat boost from items is +12, so 'stats' do NOT always 'stack', though your total stat bonus from any given stat DOES always get added to ab.

Harper Scout and Ranger bonuses do NOT stack - as far as I know you can only take favored enemy for each race once. If I am wrong about that, then they MAY stack.

Best,
Funky

[skipio]

Sorry for bringing back a 2 days old topic, but the last 2 posts interested me. Will bane of enemies work on *Harper Scouts chosen* favored enemies?

- Gavin Magnus

[doomsdaybringer]

balduvard said:

An example we'll take my AA, who has a bab of 30 (1 bard/9 fighter/30 AA), 48 dex for a +19 to AB,

I think ur AA have one bab of 29...
I think it is impossible for any one to make a pure AA with bab of 30.

hfb said:

Greetings,


So, to summarize, raw bonuses always stack and do so without artificial limits. They include bab, stat mods, feats, and class features (wm, aa, bard song, etc.).

The Dancer

I think bard song counted as magic and so it is included in the +20 cap.

[FunkySwerve]

skipio said:

Sorry for bringing back a 2 days old topic, but the last 2 posts interested me. Will bane of enemies work on *Harper Scouts chosen* favored enemies?

- Gavin Magnus

Again I'm not positive, though I have a ranger/HS I have never taken the HS favored enemy (you can sub other feats, not sure if thats a Biobug or not). Greater Dex, anyone? It's a good bet it does, however, judging by the way the game engine 'thinks'.
Funky

[FunkySwerve]

doomsdaybringer said:

balduvard said:

An example we'll take my AA, who has a bab of 30 (1 bard/9 fighter/30 AA), 48 dex for a +19 to AB,

I think ur AA have one bab of 29...
I think it is impossible for any one to make a pure AA with bab of 30.

hfb said:

Greetings,


So, to summarize, raw bonuses always stack and do so without artificial limits. They include bab, stat mods, feats, and class features (wm, aa, bard song, etc.).

The Dancer

I think bard song counted as magic and so it is included in the +20 cap.

29 ab for an archer, correct, bard gets +0 for lvl 1

As for class features, yah, that slipped by me. 'Magic' is a slippery category, a better one would be 'temporarily applied by script'. That catches all magic, bard song, strength domain ability, etc. WM bonus and AA bonus are permanent, and do stack. The rationale underlying this I don't understand, but the cause I do. I can use the hardcoded command AttackIncrease() to add ab to a critter, but it smacks into the same wall. Tried it on a critter with +20 enchanted claws and guess what, no ab increase. Guess which command all those scripted temporary bonuses rely on? It may not be much help to non-builders, but the rule seems to be:
-in the 2da files associated with core character attributes---->stacks/adds correctly
-added temporarily by script and weapon bonus ----> stacks only to 20 total of this type

Funky

[skipio]

Again I'm not positive, though I have a ranger/HS I have never taken the HS favored enemy (you can sub other feats, not sure if thats a Biobug or not). Greater Dex, anyone? It's a good bet it does, however, judging by the way the game engine 'thinks'.
Funky

Greater dex? interesting. I personally think it's a bug, considering there are lots of other bugs concerning epic feats in general (one of these allowed you to pick epic class feats at lvl 20 of the needed class)