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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 20:34:18 GMT
Resting, Fine Print, and Asmo Rod with this line of thinking should be the sources of full restoration of spells and abilities. Exclude epics and paragons from anything but these. Then you can't spam them because places like Limbo have the variable ring charge limitations and pedestal caps. Your issue is resolved.
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Post by simpetar on Jul 5, 2020 20:34:38 GMT
Fine print is one use, per server reset. That should remain untouched. Except you can stock up on those, come on. And you do only 1 limbo per reset as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 20:35:46 GMT
They were limited. Or were slated to be. One per character, and once per reset. Anything beyond that should be adjusted to this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 20:40:02 GMT
If people are spamming bios to do runs that are on farm, and letting that carry them, their party composition is broken or they're playing wrong. Period.
Consumable use while learning a run I love and support and that is where a lot of consumable use takes place for me. The goal though, is to get to a point where none are needed on a run and that should be the expectation on a farm run.
Limbo and the variable rest charges, and the limitation on pedestal refills accomplishes the judicious use you're seeking.
Limit full refill to resting, Fine Print (1 per player, 1 per server reset), and Asmodeus Rod (1 per (x) time). Limit bios and half bios to everything but epics and PSKs and you're exactly where you want to be.
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Post by Pulpo on Jul 5, 2020 20:47:44 GMT
WoW like Who is actually blowing up Bjors and all those like they are candy? I have the same 2 on my character that I had since the Thid Tag lol. Are all these changes geared to 1% of the server pop? If Epics are changed will encounters be altered to no longer require them? Think all encounters are created with Solutions in mind. Wow, man it just seems that I am playing a COMPLETELY Different game than 99% of Forum Posters sheesh. LFG to do some of this wacky stuff!
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Post by woqued on Jul 5, 2020 21:10:37 GMT
If people are spamming bios to do runs, and letting that carry them, their party composition is broken or they're playing wrong. Period. Limbo and the variable rest charges, and the limitation on pedestal refills accomplishes the judicious use you're seeking. Limit full refill to resting, Fine Print (1 per player, 1 per server reset), and Asmodeus Rod (1 per (x) time). Limit bios and half bios to everything but epics and PSKs and you're exactly where you want to be. I think asmo rod should also not reset epics or PSKs personally, but Funkys earlier reply already seemed like they have their own ideas and have already thought of the same issues I was posting about and have a way. Paradoom - yeah, my plan wasn't to make Limbo or other zones more sloggy in any way, it's more to prevent epic abuse and to make sure Mechanus is balanced so that we aren't driven to an entirely epic-reliant way to play the game. Instead have the monsters be manageable with smart use of tools our characters have outside epics as much as possible. It will be hard for them to provide an interesting challenge with the way epics, paragons, asmorod/prints/bios are currently without forcing us into them HARD. I like using epics and really love spamming miracles on my cleric, but I don't think it's a good thing for the game. Epics could also potentially be (even) more powerful if they need to be used more sparingly, for future future runs. I'd nerf Limbopt2 further still despite the various changes they've made to help underused classes like Zens and PMs to perform better there for what it's worth. Also, every hell/abyss/ely/abo runs were being completed just fine without paragon spells and were intended to do that way - sure some changes have come since but still... I'd say quite heavily to the benefit of players over monsters overall when it comes to winning, not speed. I'll clarify to make it abundantly clear, my hope is that for future runs in particular, I would really wish that Mechanus wouldn't revolve around player epic/paragon spell use and instead on character abilities of other types, gearing and spells. If epic/paragon spell use is limited, monster capacity/amounts can be scaled to a more reasonable level as well and not every mob needs to have on-hit instakills that kill you on a 1 roll that you can't be immune to if players have less access to Seren/Miracle/Possums to solve the 1 rolls - exotic damage can be scaled lower if the assumption isn't permanent upkeep of Aegis, etc etc. I feel like Limbo pt2 too heavily revolves around player epic/paragon spell use and sincerely hope that ship is turned before or when future content lands.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 21:18:26 GMT
If you want to remove Asmo Rod from that list, totally cool with that. I don't know anyone who has used one of those in quite awhile. You're making the item worthless though.
I see people bombing epics all over the place. Adjustments need to be made. If you tie the use to rests / one FP per character per reset, you'd be fine. RE: Simp, I can only do one Limbo run on a server or I'd do more. I hardly ever use my FP as is. I am lost as to who is abusing all of these items and letting epics and paragons carry them. This is bewildering to me.
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Post by desocupado on Jul 5, 2020 21:25:47 GMT
The obvious issue is recovering epic/paragon spells with consumables.
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Post by swiftgabriel on Jul 5, 2020 21:32:39 GMT
I completely agree with Cormil as this entire discussion is about how people use misuse epics in limbo. Though some change should be made for whoever is abusing these epics, there is an entire server population who have never done hells/abyss/ely/abo... so for new players/ or unexperienced players who enter into these runs limiting epics to once per run or something to that extreme measure would make these new runs so much harder for them. Even though hells may be easy for some groups, others still struggle so it would just make already difficult runs impossible for them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 21:34:46 GMT
Three groups run Limbo. My group isn't using consumables at all, Fine Prints on VERY rare occasions. No Asmo rods. The DTs from conversations I have had with some of them aren't using them. Are the UTs doing all of this consumable abuse and have this epic dependence? I mean, I 100% agree that an adjustment needs to be made on some of these things. But, whose actually doing what is being described?
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Post by swiftgabriel on Jul 5, 2020 21:40:36 GMT
Three groups run Limbo. My group isn't using consumables at all, Fine Prints on VERY rare occasions. No Asmo rods. The DTs from conversations I have had with some of them aren't using them. Are the UTs doing all of this consumable abuse and have this epic dependence? I mean, I 100% agree that an adjustment needs to be made on some of these things. But, whose actually doing what is being described? I don't know to what extent it can be tracked, but is it possible to check who is doing all this abuse to the bios, FP, and Asmo rods, because as stated by other people, hearing that people spam these things during the run is news to me.
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Post by woqued on Jul 5, 2020 21:52:05 GMT
So nobody is abusing epics so adding cooldowns and a change that prevents abusing them affects nobody, just means that Devs don't need to take the potential to do it into account when planning the new zones post-change. I love that we are all on the same topic here and that this hurts nobody. Great!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 22:10:48 GMT
No one has debated the need for the change. We all have interest in what that reality looks like. Not sure what your comment had to do with anything except attempt to invalidate the audience.
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Post by TJ on Jul 5, 2020 22:13:37 GMT
If any of these changes are implemented, I think it would be great to do it in a phased approach, where cooldowns are slowly/over a few weeks added across things. If all of a sudden there's no way to get any epic spells back without resting, and even if you do blow a rest charge you can't use your epics, that's going to require many people who don't min/max toons to re-learn runs entirely. Is the goal here to alienate large portions of casual players who still play the mod? That to me would be incredibly toxic and not well thought out.
When I was learning limbo on my bard, I probably used 2-3 full bios per run because I wasn't able to conserve my epics/songs well. If I wasn't able to use bios to get my epics back, our group would have wiped while I was learning the run. That incentivizes people to NOT take new players or unfamiliar players on new runs, which further gates access to end game content. Now, I'm not saying end game content should be easy. I think that forcing a new bard playing limbo to blow several bios per run is reasonable, and I had to farm/buy bios while not doing those runs in order to replenish. That's reasonable. If I wasn't able to recover from mistakes I made, is wasting hours of several other peoples time reasonable?
Sure, add cooldowns to everything, and make it so you can't cheese fights by resting and spamming eradicate or immute. Not going to get any arguments from me there. But removing epic/paragon restoration from bios feels like you're just trying to make life harder for people, and make the mod less approachable. There's already the penalty of limboing and needing to pay and losing gear when you are learning an area.
Not going to get any arguments from me over Divine Power. The fact that a single item has to be worn by basically every tank is an already known issue. Either make DP more available, or add a cooldown between wrap uses so that people can't put six on a toon and get a permanent extra two attacks.
I feel like there are a lot of suggestions coming to reduce the power of a lot of things, and from players that maybe arent playing a huge amount, or are only playing certain areas of the mod with a certain group and know a single play style. Don't hurt the ability of people to learn the mod or play things slightly differently from you just because you dont like the other play styles. One of the great things about HG is that there are a ton of ways to do things, and bios/FP/RR/erad/whatever all play a part of that. The varying play styles, builds, and party comps is what keeps me coming back to HG over time. If changes are made so that everyone has to play the same way, I may as well just go play WoW and build another cookie cutter whatever because that's what HG is going to become when you remove flexibility and freedom.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 22:14:33 GMT
So, is what you're talking Funky changing epics / paragon spells to be one use per run? Period? No idea where you got that idea. Current notion is between 10 to 15 minute CDs on the problem ones. On a 3h run, this would allow about 12-13 uses, whereas on a short 1.5 run, 6-7. Hence me saying the bio limit is likely less restrictive. Funky
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