Large Subraces

[Argon]

Question/observation/musings about Large Subraces:

It was briefly discussed before, but folks didn't know the answer. I did some testing.... For Large subraces, if you use a large weapon, you don't get 1.5x str damage, you just get 1x str damage. This applies if you use a large weapon plus shield or just a large weapon and nothing else. Which is kind of a bummer to me, since you now have these puny half-orcs wielding greataxes 2-handed and doing more damage than a large Troll can.

Ways I can think of to rectify this is either give large creatures 1.5x str damage with weapons (tiny up to large), or make up a new category of weapons - call them "giant" weapons or something - that medium characters can't even wield, but large characters can wield 2-handed, and thus get the 1.5x str bonus. Giant Sword, Great Spear, or something like that. I don't know if any of this is even possible, but it doesn't seem right that Large creatures have less opportunity to do damage, when it seems to me that they should have opportunity for more.

Maybe this is intentional, I've long ago realized the DM's have a better sense of how to keep things balanced than I do, but I just wanted to point this out in case it was something that was overlooked. What say the rest of you?

[fusa]

1.5x str bonus to large subraces would really unbalance the mod, a player with 50 str would be boosted to 75. I think using the large weapon with a shield was the bonus for those subraces. But extra large weapons would be nice, but dont know if it could be done.

[Argon]

Maybe I misspoke. I don't mean 1.5x str, but instead the 1.5x str damage bonus. For example, if a half-orc with a 40 str (+15 str modifier) wields a greatsword, he gets 1.5x 15 = +22 damage. But a troll with the same str and the same weapon only gets +15 damage.

To me, wielding a large weapon and a shield isn't a HUGE advantage... pretty insignificant by the time you get high-levels. Greataxe vs. battleaxe is 1d12 vs 1d8..... greatsword vs longsword is 2d6 vs 1d8. The difference in losing 1.5x str modifier is huge compared to the tiny difference in base damage of large vs. medium weapons. That's why I think a large subrace wielding a weapon plus a shield should keep the 1.5x str damage, gives them the same damage bonus as a medium creature wielding a large weapon. Or alternately, give them an even bigger weapon to use that lets them have the two-handed 1.5x str modifier damage.

Hope that clears things up. Thoughts?

[hiryuu]

It won't happen. Adding new weapon types, assuming NWN even has support for a larger weapon size, would require a hak. Likewise, the 1.5x damage is only for two-handed weapons, so you can't have it both ways. You should, I'm guessing, be able to dual-wield medium weapons as light, which will expand your options quite a bit.

[FunkySwerve]

Yup, hiryuu, right on both counts. So no 'huge' weapon class either. Lol.
Funky

[Ralkain]

argon said:

To me, wielding a large weapon and a shield isn't a HUGE advantage... pretty insignificant by the time you get high-levels.

Your milage may varry, but 15+ AC difference (with +10 tower or better) is pretty big IMO, even at high levels. In fact since the effect of your shield scales as you level, the benefit likewise scales.

Or alternately, give them an even bigger weapon to use that lets them have the two-handed 1.5x str modifier damage.

Of course this would be the way to go logically, but may be very difficult to implement and thus may be out of the question.

Maybe there's other ways too, like an off hand torch that adds damage to your main hand equal to 50% of your str mod and of the same damage type. Or some other trick, but these may be hard to implement too and may have other issues.

I.e., even if that was easy to implement, it would effectively allow any 1-handed weapon to turn into a 2-handed one and perhaps there a some 1-handed weapons where that would be a balance issue.

However, I still view it as a huge boon to be able to use 2-handed and shield together and given all the L Barbarian shape and race builds out there, it seems others do too. Even though it would be nice to have 2H weapons for those folks too, but not if its too difficult technically (i.e., what we have may not be perfect, but its very nice).

Dave.

[Argon]

Sorry, I must be doing a really bad job of explaining myself here.

I don't mean to imply that +10 or +15 AC isn't a big deal, it most certainly is. My beef with large subraces is not that using a large weapon and a shield isn't that good, but their inability to do as much damage as a medium sized character. Please smack me upside the head if someone has really addressed this, but I can't find it.

A large weapon wielded by a medium guy is different than a large weapon wielded by a large character. The big benefit for a medium creature using a large weapon vs. a medium weapon is not the few extra damage points the weapon base gives you, but the tons of str bonus damage you get. Yes, you give up the +15 AC (or whatever) for not using a shield, but you get 1.5x str bonus damage. Large subraces do not have this option. Yes, they can use a large weapon and shield, and that's great for AC, but there's no way for them to get the large (1.5x) str bonus damage medium guys get. So you get a troll walking around with a greataxe and shield, wonderful ac, but less damage. (Yes, better damage than a medium guy with battleaxe and shield, but that's not my point.) Say I want to make a big damage-dealing guy. How do I do it? I sure as heck pick a medium subrace and use a 2-handed weapon. If I pick a troll, no matter how I work it his damage is going to be less.

The way I see it, the bonus for being large is using a large weapon plus shield vs. using a medium weapon plus shield. (Or being able to dual-wield a medium weapon offhand...) That to me is fairly insignificant. Now if you were able to use a large weapon and get large weapon bonus damage (2-handed bonus damage), THAT would be a benefit!

Just to use an example to make my point, I can build a tiny little halfling that can do more damage than any big ol' troll ever can. Just pump halfling's str, put a longsword in his hands, and BAM! He does more damage than a troll possibly can, no matter how you make the troll. (Again, yes, his AC will suck vs. the Trolls, and the Troll can get more attacks in, etc, etc, etc. But the point is, the Troll CAN NOT POSSIBLY EVER DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS THIS HALFLING.)

Which is fine, limiting large subraces to either 2-weapon fighting or 1-weapon and shield fighting, if you don't want to give them any other options. I guess I'm just lamenting the fact that larges don't get an option to use weapons two-handed, and have no way to get as much damage as smaller guys. Just as long as that's the plan... letting the mediums have the potential to deal more damage than larges.

(Also, as I said, I have no idea how difficult it is to implement any of the above... if it's too hard that's fine too, just as long as there's a reason why it's the way it is.)

[Balduvard]

I don't know, I'm quite satisfied with the roughly 40 base damage my large sized character does before adding a damage enhancing weapon or imp. power attack. In regards to the discussion, sure I could probably get more damage out of a smaller character. However being able to wield a shield in this mod, particularly with a Str based build, is essential to me.

The system to me seems balanced to me as it is; if you want to have higher damage you pick a smaller creature with a two handed weapon, but if you want to wield that weapon and still have a shield to help your AC you can go with the larger creatures. It therefore all comes down to player choice.

I would think that trying to give large sized creatures the same damage capabilities as smaller creatures could tip unfavorably what balance there is now (regardless of how much realistic sense it would make).

[Argon]

Thank you Balduvard! As long as it's done this way on purpose, to keep things balanced, I'm totally fine with that. As I said in my very first post on the subject, I know the DM's play more than I do & know how to keep things balanced a lot better than I do, so if that's why it is the way it is, that's fine. I just wanted to make sure the inability of large creatures to use a weapon two-handed and do two-handed damage wasn't an oversight.

Finally, I can put this issue to rest in my mind and move on with life! :-)