AC on HG

[kurtiswolf]

Two quick, unsolicited, thoughts on AC on HG:

1) Given the amazing shields on the server (for example, one of my guy has a +15 tower shield), it's practically suicide to chose to dual-wield or use a two-handed weapon. Forgoing a +15 tower shield, so that you can use both hands for weapons means that a mob that would usually need a 20 to hit you would now only need a 2. Pretty serious handicap. Is there any chance that you guys would start adding weapons that have low shield bonuses (ie MOAD's greatsword might also give you a +10 shield bonus, or the same for her other weapons). That way, you'd drop from needing a 20 to being hit to 12. Still a huge punishment, but at least somewhat doable.

2) With the new legendary levels, will tumble and dex benefits make somepeople's ACs absurd? Those who get tumble will get an extra 4 to AC, and Dex-based characters could get an extra 10 to their AC. When I look at builds, it just seems like if you go 6 DD and max out Dex and Tumble, you become virtually unhittable (especially if you take Epic Dodge and 5 Self-Conceals, which is now much easier to do with the extra feats).

Just a couple random questions.

[FunkySwerve]

1) You don't want that, because your damage bonuses would suffer. You'd be better off using a smaller weapon with no feats invested in it and a shield, than using a greatsword that had enough properties removed to add 10 to ac.

2) Tumble is dodge bonus, which maxes at 20. The max ac for dexers on the server increased by 5, with the 10 extra stat points. Realistically, it probably increased on average by 6 or so, since more feats are available, and most builds don't max greater ability feats under 40. You can expect to see that change mirrored for non-dexers via gear, somewhat shortly.
Funky

[kurtiswolf]

Funky,
Thanks for the response. #2 makes perfect sense, especially considering my bad math .

As for question 1, I'm still a bit confused. Is there only so many benefits you can put on a weapon? Or is the problem that it makes the level required to use too high?

I guess it was stupid on my part to suggest a solution, 'cause I'd have no idea what would work. I guess my real question is, "given that it's suicide to NOT use a shield (except for wizes, monks, sorcs, etc...) is there the potential for any tweaks that would reduce the penalty?" Or maybe more relevant, "do you agree that the way things are creates a huge disadvantage to people who want to dual-wield, or use a weapon two-handed? and if so, do you think it's a problem, or is it by design?" I know a trade-off needs to exists, such that your ac is decreased in exchange for dealing more damage, but it just seems to be a HUGE cost for a small gain.

Hope you don't mind me being a pain about this, I just find that the guys I build to use a weapon two-handed never get to fight two handed because they get killed in two seconds without a shield. Feel free to tell me I'm pathetic at builds if I have that problem...

[hiryuu]

Tumble is dodge type, but not part of the 20 dodge cap. This was shown in the flat-footed thread, as 22 of Swifty's AC was dodge/tumble. He has since added 2 more tumble AC from LL.

And yes, the issue is keeping the weapon under Item Level Restrictions (which is becoming a serious limitation on this amped up mod). The other issue is weapons get Deflection AC, never Shield.

[mishimayukio]

another solution to lack of AC when dual wielding is you can design a class for it, pump up wisdom and take a monk level, or make it a bard and get the 70% conceal at lvl 35, or do both

[hiryuu]

With Discipline, Spellcraft, Tumble, and UMD, I suspect Bard is about to become the new Ranger.

[FunkySwerve]

hiryuu said:

Tumble is dodge type, but not part of the 20 dodge cap.

If this is accurate we have a balance problem. Gonna have to run a few tests, but from what I recall this is incorrect.

Funky

[Lord FlashHeart]

I'm pretty sure it is accurate Funky, the cap is for increases to ac by artificial means (i.e items, bardsong, spells.) Where tumble is concerned it is considered a skill in that it is innate and hence not 'artificial'. If it were included in the cap and combined with haste it would mean that for chars with maximised tumble, they would only need another 8 dodge to reach the cap (8 AC for 40 ranks of tumble + 4 AC for haste = 12). If this were the case, boots with higher than +8 dodge AC on them would not raise a maxi-tumblers ac any higher. I find that on my chars with max tumble i can gain a full +20 more dodge. You can test this by equipping a maxi tumbler with immo boots, a haste item and then using the immo helm for epic mage armour. The boots will raise ac by 15, the haste item will raise it by 4 and the mage armour a further 1 (as you hit the 20 cap) If tumble was included in the cap your AC would only go up by 12 when equipping the boots, and neither the haste item or the mage armour would raise it any further.

NB This is character sheet AC, as we all know it can be wrong but I havent had the urge to test it as i think it would be noticeable if you were actually 8 AC lower on the battle log than on your sheet.