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Post by Grogbot on Nov 16, 2005 8:08:04 GMT
Hey there
I'm a long time player of HG but not real experienced at equipment / feat combos for the upper levels (26+).
Confession: no level 40 chars after last vault wipe (and how long ago was that), never done immortal run
Anyway, interested to feel the vibe on Shields:
Are they worth the feat for a non FTR dexer?
I always thought Dexers were the AC masters but my L27 biffo cleric has higher AC (80) than my L28 rogue (72)
I could blow a feat on shield use, and its +13 AC at least, but that trades off #attacks.
What am I doing wrong?
Grog
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Post by hfb on Nov 16, 2005 12:39:12 GMT
Greetings,
IMHO, having the option for shield usage is key to a melee dexer. One feat that brings with it a 13+ ac swing is a feat well spent (unless it messes up other things like two-handed weapon use, monk ac bonuses, ethereal visage, etc.). This beats the heck out of dodge and armor skin combined.
Furthermore, I have heard tell that there are shields out there that are even better than +10, if this is true, the magnifying effect of the one feat spent is that much larger, especially if the shield comes with other benefits besides ac. Just like one of the biggest disadvantages to being an "unarmed" monk is the loss of the use of a weapon slot--and the under utilization of the off hand with a flag or holy symbol--an additional advantage of shield use is the expanded employment of the off hand slot. (I have a character that traveled a long time with shield with mind immunie on it because, given her gear at the time, that was the best place to get the protection I needed for her pea-brain.)
It does trade offense for defense and so as an option it is very good to have, imo. Sometimes the best offense is just staying on your feet, especially when you are the front line and the artillery needs the time it takes to get through you to get through them.... As time goes by this becomes more and more the case. In top end areas, the usefulness of the shield only increases, imho.
So, long and the short of it: rogues need shields badly!
Dance like a butterfly which carries its own defense grid so that it may sting like a bee,
The Dancer
PS: the AC on HG thread is also useful here....
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Post by Ralkain on Nov 16, 2005 12:40:26 GMT
Anyway, interested to feel the vibe on Shields: Are they worth the feat for a non FTR dexer? I always thought Dexers were the AC masters but my L27 biffo cleric has higher AC (80) than my L28 rogue (72) I could blow a feat on shield use, and its +13 AC at least, but that trades off #attacks. What am I doing wrong? Doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong Grog, but without seeing your build we couldn't be sure. Sounds like you understand the issues correctly. Just remember trading off #attacks might not be as bad as you think since you only ever give up 2 in your off hand, but when using a shield your (at most 5) primary attacks are all most likely 2-4 better, so you might not be out anything damage wise. The reason I say at most 5 is that you say you have no fighter classess so max attacks would be 3 attacks plus haste and perhaps flurry. When shielded you loose any monk progression you might have had, but I think you can still flurry (not positive on that though, but I know you can still cleave, evasion, etc). Before I say yeah, take the shield feat, I guess I'd like to know why you couldn't work at least 4 levels of a fighter class into your build maxing out your attacks per round (since that's what you seem to want to do). I'm not saying there isn't a dexer build that shouldn't work that in, but most can (thus saving that shield feat *and* increasing your attacks). My dexer fighter uses 2 weapons when he can, but uses his shield in dangerous areas like ssith (so I find it adventageous to have both options available). Dave. |
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Post by Ralkain on Nov 16, 2005 12:46:39 GMT
Furthermore, I have heard tell that there are shields out there that are even better than +10, if this is true,... Its true, I know of two +12's one that's just a +12 tower and one that's +12 with lots of other stuff on it. But I hear tell of a mystical +14 out there somewhere  . Its only because of HG that you can get any use of the off hand at all (thankfully), but they don't really loose their primary weapon slot, they loose their gauntlet/gloves slot (that essentially becomes their primary weapon slot). Dave. |
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Post by Grogbot on Nov 16, 2005 19:33:32 GMT
Hey guys
Thanks for replies.
Re: 4 x FTR levels (before L20 I assume)
This gives Shield, Martial Weapons, HPs, +1 BAB over Rogue and hence one extra attack, FORT save increase. It comes at the expense of 2d6 sneak attack and skills, and delay in Rogue-feats (like Opportunist etc.)
This build I chose Monk post L20 - two extra attacks, flurry for a third, Cleave, Stun fist (wussy), good bonuses to all saves, WIS bonus potential for AC, no real sacrifice in Rogue progression.
I see a tradeoff here: if I really wanted that Sneak I could have taken FTR and then Extra Sneak, or Monk and then Shield ....
Thoughts?
Grog
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Post by Ralkain on Nov 16, 2005 20:16:38 GMT
Re: 4 x FTR levels (before L20 I assume) Yep, but not necessarily Fighter, fighter in the +1 BAB/level type (i.e., fighter, barb, ranger, AA, Blackguard, WM, etc). Yep and if you take Fighter as you're suggesting, possibly weapon specialization. Delay shouldn't be that big a deal, but it may actually increase your sneak attack dice, not lower it. Lets say you had 15D your way and only 13D the ftr type way. That extra AB may make you hit on one that would have missed (minor), but that extra attack comes 13D every round, so you loose 2D on 5 or so attacks, but pick up 13D, so for the round you may actually increase your total possible sneak dice. Of course your mileage will vary greatly depending on what your facing, but as you see its not a total loss on dice. Monk is a great splash class, just remember, if you take them all post 20, you don't get their save bonuses (those are only for pre-20 levels, epic chars advance their saves identically). As I said I'd have to see your build, right now its just generalities, but your sneak loss may be made up by weapon specialization and the extra AB/Attack in the long run (and all 3 of these still apply on sneak immune targets too). If you send me your build via email from this forum, I'd be happy to look it over for you and provide suggestions. Dave. |
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Post by doomsdaybringer on Nov 17, 2005 0:29:52 GMT
i think the +14 shield is Slag...but it have - 8 dex and it require lvl 40 to use it.
However, it is easier to acquire than the other two +12 shield for me anyway....
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Post by FunkySwerve on Nov 17, 2005 15:54:34 GMT
You cannot flurry with a shield equipped. A properly-built character with monk levels should almost never equip a shield - you lose wis bonus to ac as well. Other than than, dexers should DEFINITELY have shield proficiency. Grog, you problem is your ACs, they are too low. Target AC for the drow used to be 82+ (meaning their top attack would hit you only 5% of the time). In the abyss it was around 90, but I uppped the abs in both and don't remember the new target acs - they are quite high in the drow as they lost their extra attacks. You should always get tumble as high as you can in 5 point increments - almost all my builds have it, save my cleric, due to careful class selection. Other than that, make sure you have the best gear available. There's a thread here somewhere that calculates the best possible pre-abyss ac, with breakdowns by type, you can use that to see where you are lacking, or grab me ingame.
Funky
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Post by Grogbot on Nov 17, 2005 19:37:53 GMT
Thanks Funky. I was pretty sure AC was too low, since my Cleric had btter AC at a lower level than my Dexer rogue. But I'm a little confused re: Flurry You cannot flurry with a shield equipped. Funky My Cleric uses Flurry all the time with a shield. Its not prohibited (say like Stunning Fist with a Kama is), and the char sheet shows the AB drop. I'll check the log and report back ... |
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Post by Grogbot on Nov 17, 2005 19:46:53 GMT
Erm, I think you are wrong Funky re: Shield and Flurry.
My cleric 27/Monk 1 (Plate +10, Shield +10) can use Flurry of Blows.
* The Char sheet shows the AB drop
* The "Flurry of Blows activated" message appears above the character
* I "hear" 2 quick attacks
* I see the AB drop in the log
* I see "Flurry of Blows: Ace Grogbot attacks combat dummy" in the log
* I see two attacks at Max AB -2 in the log
I have a screenshot if you want it.
Grog the Flurrier
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Post by Lord FlashHeart on Nov 18, 2005 10:16:47 GMT
If you take the matkliss stormtroopers as the benchmark you need an ac of 97 for them to hit you on a 20 only (last time I checked). The abyss seems to be a bit lower IMO, but the last 2 chars I took through there did have epic dodge and SCV. A non-dexer can reach 97 pre-lolth if he has MOAD tag, (or not as there is another set of high armour in drow houses somewhere although I cant remember the exact stats on it.) 10 base, Dodge 10 (sunsouls, hardiness) + Haste = 14 Natural 10 (ammy+10, battle amulet) Deflection 14 (-8 dex +14 ring) armour 13 (MOAD armour) + base full plate = 21 shield 14 (Slag) + base tower shield = 17 tumble 8 armour skin 2 1 dex modifier =97 Post Immo its 111. Flash the AC guru |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Nov 19, 2005 18:16:01 GMT
Re flurry: yup, sorry, was thinking of the number of attacks with kama or fists, not flurry. Equip a shield and the -3 progression switches to the -5, maxing attacks per round at 4 base instead of 6 base.
More attack loss than flurry for alotta builds, thouugh maybe the same loss for your cleric.
Re:abyss - lower ab than drow, more attacks. This was done because the engine tends to take the 5 extra attacks the abyss critters get at top ab instead of scaling down, though they have started to scale down correctly of late, probably due to decreased lag. After I took the extra attacks off the drow (to help cut lag), I added ab to compensate for their greatly decreased difficulty (1 attack at top ab instead of 7 or 6).
Funky
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