|
Post by starcore on Jul 19, 2022 0:50:59 GMT
Or...you shared it privately with a few people in a discord? Both...? When my test character logged on too early and got stuck on the boat, I literally said (in voice comms) "hmm I wonder if that means I could trade subs to them" And left it at that I later confirmed privately that it actually worked, but didn't exploit it beyond a test account that I haven't actually played. When I say there's no incentive for reporting bugs, I mean that there is seemingly very little DM activity, and reporting it would just add unnecessary work... any dev time I would MUCH rather go into new content or fixing existing bugs, rather than fixing exploits. It may be selfish, but id rather work be done on things that improve my game experience, rather than trying to punish others If there's no time for even basic things like restoring a lost Pelor mote (still not fixed) : highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/26523/pelor-mote-disappearedThen why would I bother to report something like this? It's a shame that the bug became widely known and utilized
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Jul 19, 2022 2:28:50 GMT
I don't think that's selfish. I also would prefer to see dev time spent on improving my experience, rather than having other people regulate my behavior by fixing exploits that may be delivered in a way I find overly cumbersome or stifling (just like I may find some balance updates to be overly-nerfy or poorly-executed).
As time wears on, in games like this, it often seems that the latter becomes more and more the case. Often, that's because it requires not only less far less hours than either hacking or building, but less coding savvy to produce updates that have some desired impact.
If there are fewer active hackers around to contribute to significant tweaks or fixing bugs that may be very complicated, then that sort of activity likely doesn't get touched for long periods at a time. Similarly, if there are fewer active builders, the delivery of new content suffers as well.
On the other hand, active and interested DMs that may have neither the time nor ability for building or engine hacking, may know enough to change things that bring the game closer to where they want it to be. Unfortunately, not all bugs are created equal, and some bugs may not be fixable by any staff member, or--in some cases--indeed even fixable by anyone but Funky or Acaos.
When there's only a couple staff members, and someone's real life prevents them from tending to DM duties, that impact can be dramatic. All I mean to say with this is that unfortunately we may not always be considering the circumstances in play that might be creating a scenario of no time. Waiting almost a year for a pelor mote replacement does seem a bit much, and I'd be frustrated as well. I have no explanation for this. That sucks. Things tend to get lost in the shuffle here on the forums, so persistence is really the only thing I can suggest there (counseling patience is of limited use).
Back on topic, I'm not sure that there aren't multiple exploits surrounding subrace books. I wasn't assuming that this exploit was "the one" that was fixed (if there was just one--and perhaps there was more than one), and I didn't mean to infer that you bear responsibility for discovering or spreading it. That could be the case, but I don't know. I just meant to point out that it's always good to make a habit of practicing reporting of an exploit in private to staff, and along with feeling good about doing so, people that do this don't have to worry about getting caught cheating, which is a pretty good incentive--even if it seems hopeless to bother the DMs about something that you may reasonably assume won't be fixed for a long time (if ever) and meanwhile they haven't even fixed a broken thing for you that was the result of a bug. I understand much better where you were coming from now.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Jul 19, 2022 7:20:23 GMT
That was a funny way to find this exploit. Reeks of a classic in old games, gave me that fuzzy nostalgic feeling. Thanks for typing it out.
|
|
|
Post by boroie on Jul 19, 2022 16:43:35 GMT
I heard the exploit had been known about for quite a long time (years) before Star encountered it. Obviously it was quite a closely guarded secret. When I first heard about it, it was in the context that it had been reported already btw.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Jul 19, 2022 21:49:27 GMT
It's pretty funny to think that people have been doing this for a long time.
Such an exploit certainly makes a joke of hardcore mode, but I'm not a bit surprised. Unlike a vet bored of grinding in normal mode and just wanting to quickly get a boost to their army bots, the spirit and rules of hardcore (no reinc, separate subbie tags) is completely antithetical to this kind of cheat. Even being bored and jaded in hc mode, bypassing the principles of earning each upgrade tier on an account is pretty hilarious.
However, it wouldn't be the first time (and surely won't be the last) that players seeking easy and fast advancement in hardcore figure out some exploit in their rush for bragging rights.
It must have been a closely-guarded secret, indeed. Certainly not the first or last of such, either. I would be interested to know if it is true that it had been reported and known to staff for a long time.
If so, it rather begs the question of why both the subrace restriction code and the exploit were allowed to co-exist. It seems to me that if the bug couldn't be fixed, it would have been healthier and made more sense to publicly disclose that the subrace restrictions have been done away with, due to an inability to enforce them properly. After all, it has been a pretty popular request for a long time, and the restriction has been a sticking point for both vets and newbs alike over the years.
In fact, it feels really stupid to both defend the rules and admonish those who cheated around them, if it was known that the rules weren't effective and that people were breaking them, but no fix or punishment was ever doled out.
I suppose I'm only working this third-hand word-of-mouth and gossip, but it's difficult to justify the position of "even if you disagree with the rule, you should still follow it" if it's true that those tasked with enforcing the law knew that it was unenforceable and not being enforced for a long period. If this is the case, then the entire thing looks more like people that were ignorant were done a disservice, while those with inside information were able to get some small (yet material--again, if it wasn't worth anything, no one would do it, right?) advantage over everyone else.
|
|
|
Post by yune on Jul 19, 2022 22:50:47 GMT
As far as I know, the boat books trick shouldn't have any special impact on HC. It doesn't let you read non-HC books in HC mode. Yes you can create a test HC toon to read, but it's still HC so you can't give normal mode books to it.
I used it for normal mode accounts because I value my time. After I've leveled 10+ toons to 60, doing it isn't challenging or that entertaining, so I'd rather not have to level another one just to abandon it as soon as it gets there. If I remember right, the point of the level requirement on books was so people didn't gift BUR books to newbies. It's hard to argue player X's fourth account is a newbie. Book tagging is completely different to normal item tagging. Normal items need the tag on the toon that wants to use them, while books must be tagged on a toon that's not using it.
I was happy to share how to do boat books with people because I think it improved the game and I expected many people would agree.
|
|
|
Post by madzapper on Jul 20, 2022 0:32:36 GMT
It's pretty funny to think that people have been doing this for a long time. or, as the case may be, saddening. It must have been a closely-guarded secret, indeed. Certainly not the first or last of such, either. I would be interested to know if it is true that it had been reported and known to staff for a long time. If so, it rather begs the question of why both the subrace restriction code and the exploit were allowed to co-exist. It seems to me that if the bug couldn't be fixed, it would have been healthier and made more sense to publicly disclose that the subrace restrictions have been done away with, due to an inability to enforce them properly. After all, it has been a pretty popular request for a long time, and the restriction has been a sticking point for both vets and newbs alike over the years. In fact, it feels really stupid to both defend the rules and admonish those who cheated around them, if it was known that the rules weren't effective and that people were breaking them, but no fix or punishment was ever doled out. I suppose I'm only working this third-hand word-of-mouth and gossip, but it's difficult to justify the position of "even if you disagree with the rule, you should still follow it" if it's true that those tasked with enforcing the law knew that it was unenforceable and not being enforced for a long period. If this is the case, then the entire thing looks more like people that were ignorant were done a disservice, while those with inside information were able to get some small (yet material--again, if it wasn't worth anything, no one would do it, right?) advantage over everyone else. I always thought Higher Ground was a place that was supposed to work off the honor system. To my knowledge, when bugs get reported, they get fixed. Of course there's a priority queue, and limited people who are available to do it. And, of course, other "real life" barriers that players may or may not be aware of. None of that is even relevant or necessary if people just did "the right thing", though. If you want/need proof that bugs/exploits get fixed, though, please note that this exploit was fixed. It has been fixed for a while, just not able to be moved live for "reasons". 100% for sure, though, exploits that aren't reported are pretty much guaranteed to not be fixed. It's not as if the devs wake up at 3am and go "aha! test characters... level 80.. books... ding ding ding". Well, that might happen occasionally, but that's not the point (grin). No dev can see all outcomes. Even with good testing, which is usually done by the dev, the issue may not be immediately revealed. As for enforcement, just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't (also doesn't mean it will). It might just be that getting the fix out was more important. The posts in here, though, are honestly disenheartening and leaves me feeling pretty defeated. Rules are made to make the server a BETTER place for everyone. The proper way to get around rules is to discuss it and get change through proper channels. My Note: A person who abuses an exploit that is definitely in conflict with a rule isn't helping the server, they are just helping themselves.These are, of course, my opinions. I'm not speaking for anyone else. Cheers, madzapper
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2022 1:07:33 GMT
It is interesting how people justify rule breaking. "That's how I play the game, I don't complain about how you play" or "I did my time, now I deserve to do it my way." Ultimately, breaking rules, using exploits takes the fun out of the game. Be careful about using another thought fallacy when attempting to disagree.
|
|
|
Post by KnightErrant on Jul 20, 2022 1:30:49 GMT
"With no real incentive to report bugs/exploits they tend to just stay within small communities when/if they do become known. I can tell you firsthand there's bugs way worse than this one... But better they just stay unknown and unused as to not waste dev time."
It fosters goodwill and trust with the DM staff...
When players want/petition to get things changed they don't like it's hard to take requests from some seriously when you know they're exploiting/cheating (have already been caught at it before) the system in some other major way. Really really hard to not just say "What a freaking hypocrite!" and move on to game/loot ideas from players who you trust.
My .02 KE.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Jul 20, 2022 1:35:47 GMT
As far as I know, the boat books trick shouldn't have any special impact on HC. It doesn't let you read non-HC books in HC mode. Yes you can create a test HC toon to read, but it's still HC so you can't give normal mode books to it. You may not be able to give normal mode books to an -HC- test toon, but that has nothing to do with whether the "trick" (let's just call it a cheat, though, since that's what it is) works for -HC- mode books. You probably could not give a normal mode book to an -HC- toon without it poofing (impossible to definitively rule out, but unlikely currently, after years of anti-exploits), but you could give a subrace book from another -HC- toon, to the same effect as in normal mode. Does the fact that it's possible mean people did it? I don't know. Maybe others will step forward like you to talk about that. I'm not clear on what "special impact" means in this context. The impact would just be the same as in normal mode: starting a toon with an upgraded subrace on an account that shouldn't have been allowed to read the book due to not having a character of the appropriate level. In normal mode, this could potentially also save a second book per exploited subrace, by starting a new character on a new account with a higher-tier subrace than would otherwise be available, and rather than reincarnating and burning an extra book to upgrade the subrace, there would be no need to bother, since you could just read the book without even having a "real" toon of proper level. For -HC- mode, there is no reincarnation, so that angle doesn't apply--instead, in -HC- mode, you have to actually play a character to the required level and then make a new character once you have tagged the account, in order to take advantage of the upgraded subrace. Considering that this period of time investment is what provides the sense of earning an upgraded race and unlocking it due to effort, this exploit would then allow the exact same advantage as what you desired in normal mode: starting a new account with an upgraded subrace that you feel entitled to on that account but didn't earn on that account, because you earned it as a player and you don't want to waste time doing it on a new account. I used it for normal mode accounts because I value my time. After I've leveled 10+ toons to 60, doing it isn't challenging or that entertaining, so I'd rather not have to level another one just to abandon it as soon as it gets there. If I remember right, the point of the level requirement on books was so people didn't gift BUR books to newbies. It's hard to argue player X's fourth account is a newbie. Book tagging is completely different to normal item tagging. Normal items need the tag on the toon that wants to use them, while books must be tagged on a toon that's not using it. I was happy to share how to do boat books with people because I think it improved the game and I expected many people would agree. I appreciate your candor and the fact that you have chosen to speak up. I'm sure everyone values their own time and I acknowledge that you value your time. It's interesting that your standard of no longer being willing to follow the rules is 10+ toons to level 60. If that's the amount of time investment and effort that you believe justifies you to use "boat books," while people that aren't in/don't use your "trick" keep wasting their own time, then so be it. As ever, it's always curious to see cheaters rationalize their cheating. I'm not surprised that you feel like you were helping people out by sharing it with them so they could also benefit from it. What is interesting is that you surely must have known that (apparently) not everyone you shared it with decided to use it. Did that ever give you pause? I do believe that others benefited by this, but what makes a public service a public service is that it's public. If you felt that you were doing nothing wrong, why not tell everyone about it? Were you afraid of it being fixed? If so, why? Do you feel that you did shared it widely enough that you counted on word-of-mouth to spread it to those you didn't personally share it with? Perhaps you felt like it was public enough, but glancing at the poll results, it seems like there's either quite a few people that didn't know about it, or quite a few liars. As for those who voted that they did know about it, there sure doesn't seem to be very many. We can probably assume that people who knew didn't vote, but that doesn't account for the people who claim to not know about it. Unless they're lying, then I wonder why this appears more like a private cheat and not a public service, as you seem to portray it. That, combined with the fact that it's clearly cheating, makes it likely that you knew it was cheating and weren't in a rush to have it be fixed or universally known. Again, though, it's nothing different from every other time ever, that someone cheated and justified it. As for the level requirement on books, you're clearly not the only one who feels like this cheating is justifiable because you either don't agree with this rule and coded mechanism, or because you feel like it's not meant for you because you're a vet and the rule is only for newbies. I don't think this explanation really addresses the reincarnation/double book aspect of the deal, which is really the main reason that people don't like the rule. If you could read a BUR book at L1, you could just make your first toon on an account a BUR. That's not the case, and we're frustrated by being forced to level up a new toon all the way to 60, at which point we face a lose-lose proposition: either abandon that toon and start all over with a new BUR one, or burn a second book to upgrade it on reinc. It seems either disingenuous, in bad faith, or short-sighted to frame this cheating as only a matter of level requirements on reading books which are aimed at preventing newbie sub gifting. We all know that if you could just reinc your toon at 60 with 1 book, you wouldn't bother cheating, because reincing makes the entire thing a wash. Not only does free reinc <=40 enable us to simply play an open sub (or secret after 35, extremely easy to burn 2 secret items for reincing if you really want to) and easily get to LLs, but 41-60 is such a paltry and nonsensical issue (especially for multiboxers that can just drag the new account easily--and don't forget, this is all about multibox armies, right, so again, it's disingenuous to pretend that levelling a toon to 60 is a remarkable burden). If the rationalization for this cheating is that people needed to because they have bot armies and they're entitled to better races from the start because they're not newbies and so the level requirement shouldn't apply, then why is the primary incentive and motivation less about being a vet and more about not wanting the extra effort of trashing a L60 toon, or the extra book cost of a reinc? As for reincarnation itself, it should be noted that it was initially designed to not even allow subrace upgrades: This is absolutely correct. Reincarnation is to fix broken toons, not to let people upgrade all their older toons to URs and BURs. Acaos This did change, of course, as players successfully argued their case and we were provided the "gift" of being able to leverage better subraces that we had unlocked with a toon, back into that toon by upgrading it rather than starting all over again. Hate it as you may, but this is Funky's game and that's the way he wanted it back then, and having you play a new character to L60 and burn a second book to upgrade it is the way he wanted it now. You can act like you're doing people a favor by improving their fun, or perhaps you could use use pages from the books of others and talk about how you'd just quit if you had to play by the rules. However, let's not forget that this is all really about a feeling of entitlement: we deserve to be able to start a new account with a good subrace, because we're bored of grinding. There's a debate to be had there, and as I mentioned earlier, it's been a point of contention and repeated complaint for years. However, this rule didn't change, and from the poll, it looks like at over a dozen players (strange, hard to believe there's even that many players active--some of those votes must be bots!) still followed that rule in good faith and accepted the time sink that the subrace restrictions forced down their throat. Perhaps, as I said earlier, it's just too bad that they're too dumb to have figured out the exploit, unlike you and those who chose to cheat in a way that saved themselves time and books?
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Jul 21, 2022 2:01:00 GMT
Is the rule "don't play the part of the game you want" a good rule?
That being said, it was obviously an exploit of a bug. Posting it on forums would have been a cleaner way to deal with it.
On the other hand, what should be done about exploiters? Delete characters? Edit characters? What is gained by doing that?
|
|
|
Post by jelricle on Jul 21, 2022 3:22:52 GMT
Heh, I sometimes feel that I always have the odd ball perspective.
I like to learn about exploits, just to see them. Bugs and exploits reveal the underpinnings of the game. Seeing the game design and how the pieces fit snugly or with gaps is like seeing brilliant math in the real world.
I have not used the boat exploit but would probably have done it once if I had known about it, just to see it.
Frankly, I still want to know what exploit mechanism was avoided by making my poor shifter deshift every time his inventory changes! I don't even know why nobody will describe the exploit, since it has supposedly been stopped by making shifters deshift on inventory change. I want to know the shifter exploit so that I can try it in a regular solo mod. Like I said, it is fun just to see an exploit in action, even though I can accomplish almost anything via debug mode or leto when running a solo mod.
I once encountered a mod that disarmed you and dropped your weapon on the ground when you failed a dex check (In the Prophesy trilogy, I think). I went through that fall with every armed shifter shape I had, picking up and re-equipping the resulting merged weapon while in human form each time, just to see a weapon that combined all the bonuses of every shape's weapon. Yes, that is where my mind goes for joy. :-D
|
|
|
Post by simpetar on Jul 21, 2022 9:59:04 GMT
I used it for normal mode accounts because I value my time. After I've leveled 10+ toons to 60, doing it isn't challenging or that entertaining, so I'd rather not have to level another one just to abandon it as soon as it gets there. If I remember right, the point of the level requirement on books was so people didn't gift BUR books to newbies. It's hard to argue player X's fourth account is a newbie. Book tagging is completely different to normal item tagging. Normal items need the tag on the toon that wants to use them, while books must be tagged on a toon that's not using it. Without going too deep into the rabbit hole of boxing vs. solo (valid arguments can be made on both sides), you need to carefully distinguish between new account and new character. If you start a new character on a new account, that's your own choice. From the game's perspective however, it is still a new account and has to abide by the rules. Boxing is an exception, not the rule, as far as development is concerned; numerous updates over the years that have limited boxing potential and catered to solo players (not nearly enough, as Bale pointed out, but every bit counts) speak to that matter. People may agree, but as Mad Zapper pointed out, there are proper channels to voice your ideas. Until that switch is flipped and the rules reflect the change, cheating is still cheating even if you had good intentions. Note that I am not opposing the idea of loosening book restrictions. If nothing else, XR books really should be readable at 70. But breaking the current rules for what boils down to be mere sense of entitlement, seems just wrong.
|
|
|
Post by yune on Jul 22, 2022 6:07:13 GMT
Heh, so many IRL lawful people here! I'm somewhere between N and CN. I play games to have fun. Boat books increased the fun I had and didn't make anyone else have less fun, so I did it.
|
|
|
Post by rainbowdash on Jul 22, 2022 13:17:19 GMT
Exploits like this affect the ingame economy and devalue other peoples time (also devs time since they are the ones have to clean up that mess). Abusing stuff like this instead of reporting it shows a poor sense for community. Its the same like the canopic exploit manuka/prep and co. used a while back. Its an unfair advantage and should be punished accordingly.
|
|