Reading subrace books at zero

[kid]

Really!? I take a break and come back to players new to the game who are trying to figure out exploits to use them to further their experience, getting to the content end, to what purpose? Move on the the next game? And you call yourself gamers? Those involved should come forward and have their toons deleted. Rules are in place for the community, there has to be consequences and those should hold themselves to a better standing then this. We had a guild member who used his own families accounts and the only mistake he made was not checking to see which book level their accounts were that had been dormant for years and he had his toons deleted. DMs this better be a quick action!

[chirality]

Jul 22, 2022 13:17:19 GMT rainbowdash said:

Exploits like this affect the ingame economy and devalue other peoples time (also devs time since they are the ones have to clean up that mess).

Right. It's important not to lose sight of this. Silver tongues will always find a way to alter appearances in their favor, and influence the public perception.

Make no mistake, though: despite differences of opinion and ethical debate, these are concrete facts.

The impact on devaluing "blissfully ignorant" players' time, and distorting/corrupting economy and power creep, is bad enough. The impact on the few staff we have is worse.

It's really a powerful comment on greed and ego. (Some) players (may) feel like they are entitled to abusing exploits because the devs are not active enough, but at the same time, their cheating/concealment of others' cheating just adds more work for the same devs they expect to fix the exploits they discover and secretly share.

Perhaps this fact is not considered (unlikely, and reeks of intellectual dishonesty/subconscious affirmation), but it's disheartening that players are willing to cheat or conceal the cheating of themselves/others, while griping about lack of dev activity in an all-volunteer free game.

Perhaps people are unaware that this simultaneously creates tremendous amounts of work for the very devs that must clean up their mess. If so, it's disappointing that players don't consider that their actions have such consequences.

At the end of the day, this server runs off the toil of adults with jobs, marriages, kids, and problems.

These people (let's not forget that's what they are--not anonymous robots that exist to serve this game) choose to spend their time and mental+emotional energy (often as important--or more--than time) providing us a playground.

These players (let's not forget that's what they are, or once were--not "the help" that tinkers in the shadows) generally accept a trade of playtime for "work"time, until they are burned out and tossed aside like yesterday's news.

It is the players who deserve entitlement and respect? What of the staff? Both entitlement and respect must be earned. Respect must be given to be received.

Jul 22, 2022 13:17:19 GMT rainbowdash said:

Abusing stuff like this instead of reporting it shows a poor sense for community.

Rght. I don't have a (full ) wall for this one...this is an insight that players maybe should dwell on, if it hadn't occurred to them yet.

As mentioned earlier, the poll results are likely distorted. Taking the numbers at face value, however, there's at least 7 players who were aware of this and chose not to use it.

Perhaps all 7 of them reported it and admonished the cheaters to stop. I wonder, though, if that's the case.

If not, the corruption and divisions in the game might be understandable--but just because the game is on life support, should respect for other players and staff, and a healthy sense of community, decay as well?

Jul 22, 2022 14:05:00 GMT kid said:

Really!? I take a break and come back to players new to the game who are trying to figure out exploits

Unfortunately, this "might" not be something that's only happened since you took a break, and it "might" not be something that only players new to the game figured out.

Jul 22, 2022 14:05:00 GMT kid said:

We had a guild member who used his own families accounts and the only mistake he made was not checking to see which book level their accounts were that had been dormant for years and he had his toons deleted. DMs this better be a quick action!

[desocupado]

Jul 22, 2022 13:17:19 GMT rainbowdash said:

Exploits like this affect the ingame economy and devalue other peoples time (also devs time since they are the ones have to clean up that mess). Abusing stuff like this instead of reporting it shows a poor sense for community. Its the same like the canopic exploit manuka/prep and co. used a while back. Its an unfair advantage and should be punished accordingly.

I'd say the rule devalues people time.

[thomascovenant]

The pleasure that we find in a game is to succeed and ultimately to have a reward for this success, it is I believe the basis of all games that exist and that have existed. Using an exploit is very far from being a strategy it's like using a rigged card game you win but in fact you didn't win you stole the victory, in what would there be any glory to be overcome in this way, what can be the satisfaction felt when inside you know that this reward you did not deserve it?

In all competitions and contests if a competitor is caught dishonestly winning the game, he finds himself stripped of his title, medal and ill-gotten rewards.

[Deleted]

Why the silence from the Dev team on this (besides Zapp)?

[magecat]

Jul 18, 2022 14:30:11 GMT chirality said:

Jul 18, 2022 12:53:41 GMT magecat said:

The flip side of the argument

First, let me just halt right here and dive in: there is no "flip side" and there is no "argument."

Framing this as an argument paints a picture inherently apologetic and a narrative inherently disposed to forgiving and forgetting.

TLDR; Misdirects, nonsense and other comments

I could rip this apart line by line, fallacy after fallacy, but, to be perfectly honest, it would be a waste of everyone's time.

You intentionally misconstrued the entire thing because your position VERY Carefully doesn't address the material you left out and the misappropriation is insulting to the community you purported to represent.

An argument, as the term was used in this case, is the two sides of a point. In this case, the point was NOT whether cheating occurred (which I never even mentioned), but whether the need for Level limiting was still valid.

As to all the twaddle you wrote, my only comment would be the underlying presentation that the rules in question are, and should be, immutable is what I was discussing, and it is the one thing you strenuously avoided.

Next time you want to rant about abusing other people, try to avoid the behavior your are ranting about. It undermines your position.

[jelricle]

Is there no middle ground?

Personally, my pleasure in the game is exploration — both the immersive in-game world and the meta-outer world.

It is kind of like appreciating art. eg. I love looking at Cot’s “The Storm”; it is moving and enrapturing. However, I also enjoy knowing its history and what mediums were used. Or take the Watchowski’s “The Matrix”. I have lost count of how many times I have simply watched it, but I also consume the “making of” documentaries.

This game has an awesome world, but I also like seeing how it is built. For me, seeing an exploit in action helps reveal the underpinnings.

That being said, _abusing_ and exploit can be destructive. eg. I would not want to break Lebkou’s “Parable with a Skull” just to see the grain of the brass.