The next Big Thing - Subclasses

[FunkySwerve]

Planning is beginning on the next character customization option for HG, subclasses. It's just getting off the ground, so details are fuzzy, but I'll share what I have envisioned and then ask for input.

Basically, my plan is to allow characters to select a subclass based on their current class. I'm thinking of allowing the selection either early or late in the character's career, at the player's option.

As for the subclasses, I can think of two possibilities.

Possibility one (kits): themes along the lines of 2nd edition kits, like Buccaneer, Bush Mage, Cavalier, and so on, except that I'm thinking of a one-time bonus to the character rather than changes spread out as levels are gained (which is both simpler by far to script and allows choice of subclass at a later level). For bonuses, I'm thinking maybe a stat point, a few skill points, maybe special abilities if theyre not too convoluted (though I'm leaning away from those because making them scale in usefulness fro level 1 to 40+ would be a pain, and they don't seem worth it if they dont).

With option one, for the number of subclasses, with 11 basic classes and 11 prestige classes, I think maybe an average of 3 subclasses per basic and prestige class, for a total of 66, should do the trick.

Under this system, subclass selection were allowed after level 1, it could be based on the equivalent of the character's 'control class' from the Legendary Level system.

Possibility 2 (professions):
Just allow any class to select any subclass, and broaden the subclasses to something akin to professions, like scholar, monast, bounty hunter, etc. In that case, I would probably have a few fewer subclasses, since fewer would be needed to achieve the same class/subclass variety. Players could match class and subclass as they prefer.

So, now I'm going to ask for your input.
1) Should subclass selection only happen at a certain level? Tenth Level? First level? Anytime? If allowed at first level the skill and/or stat bonuses could allow even greater build variety by fulfilling requirements, whereas by tenth the character mostly likely would be able to qualify for class x's requirements using their regular progression of skills etc.

2) Should subclasses follow the kit or the profession model?

3) What subclasses would you like to see? Feel free to suggest stat bonuses, abilities, skill bonuses, whatever.

Thanks,
Funky

[ocath]

First, I'd have to say this could be an intriquing concept. An excellent way to add even more diversity to the characters.

This being said, I would vote for the kit version myself. I was always a big fan of these in the pnp version. With the different possibilities of kits that could be added, like the tunnel rat, it could bring a lot of variety to HG.

As for when they could be taken, I think (if this is possible) at 1st level and then again at maybe 20th. The reason for this is that during creation, at least for me, my original concept doesn't always amount to the end product. Once you reach 20th you usually have a pretty good feel for what type of character you are trying to create.

I like the idea of adding the stat point and skill points, but could you (again if possible) work it like a skill focus that is predetermined? I think this could make the kit more believeable.

As for any suggestions, I like the tunnel rat, the greenwood ranger and the swashbuckler kits from 2nd ed. I could work up some stats and such if you would like.

[doomsdaybringer]

nice.....
but how does the prodressions subclass work?
and is subclass real class? or just bous state, skill, feat..etc

[FunkySwerve]

ocath said:

I could work up some stats and such if you would like.

Please do, thats what I'm really hoping for here. Especially since I have no idea where my 2E books are, though I guess I could always look at d20 system's.
Funky

[FunkySwerve]

doomsdaybringer said:

but how does the prodressions subclass work?

Noy sure what you're asking there. Profession or Progression? I described the 'profession' style subclass idea in option 2, was something unclear in the description?

and is subclass real class?

No, thats why I'm referring to them as SUBclasses. Just a one time bonus.

Funky

[doomsdaybringer]

Noy sure what you're asking there. Profession or Progression? I described the 'profession' style subclass idea in option 2, was something unclear in the description?

i was just wonder how would prefession style works?

[stevereno]

Sounds like a good idea to me and another fun addition to an allready great server. In response to question 1, I vote to allow the subclass selection to be made at anytime. I have 3 main characters I play on this server and gaining enough xp to reach level 60 is, while extremely fun, aslo extremely time consuming and the thought of starting a new build to gain the benefits of this system seem daunting to me. I like the idea of the subclass being based of off the characters control class from the legendary levels sysyem. As to the stat bonuses etc, specifics dont come to mind at the moment but I will post more after discussions in game.

Spark

[fusa]

Would it be possible for characters that have already been created to use this temporarily if it is set to a level limit? Like how the levitation ring was a week ago?

[hiryuu]

I would prefer the kit route, but multiple classes may share kits, so you don't necessarily need to have that many.

My concern with the profession method is we already have some pretty absurd builds (Bard/Paladin springs to mind), and uncontrolled subclasses would just make it more ridiculous. We'd have Bounty Hunter Wizards, Dwarven Defender Spies, and Diplomatic Assassins everywhere.

[avatthee]

lol i agree with the kit idea but i definitely suggesthaving it restricted to control class and should be allowed to use kits at lvl 10 i think cos thats the lvls i think the server makes it too hard, you have to have party of people 5 or 6 lvls higher to lvl up within any amount of time really. i Agree with hiryuu in that it would just be stupid to have Bounty hunter wizards and dwarven defender spies although the diplomatic assasins seems a funny twist

[Delfestra Ruinvorn]

I tend to prefer allowing it at any time, but part of this is because if one doesn't, then immortals or other already established characters couldn't take advantage of it.

And greedily, I like my wizard self and don't want to change

I'm in favor of the profession route - we already have more than enough ways to divide our levels between classes, prestige classes, and those who want one level of this or four levels of that to make their hybrid more icky. Sorc/pal/monk is a good example of this, as is rang/wp/monk or some of the other more popular (powergame) builds.

[Grogbot]

Going slightly against the grain, and this is a hangover from my Rolemaster days [aka Chartmaster - a full page table for every weapon], I'd like the profession model. As Hiryuu notes this can result in some odd builds, but the underlying philosophy of this seems to be "nothing is restricted". Of course this doesn't mean that "everything is useful" - gettng spell DC bonuses to a DD is an example - but does provide an exiciting extra dimension of variety.

Regarding 2E kits etc ... remember all you old timers that this spelt then end of 2nd edition - the plethora of splash-books, "+2 books", "min-max books" etc that made the game cumbersome. I note with some disappointment that 3.5E has gone the same way ... that's where the dollars are I suppose. My point is that sexy builds and fun times can be had in a slightly expanded rule set and we don't really need 6.023 x E23 combinations.

Avagadro The Mole, min-maxer

(Oh, I mean "Grog")

[Grogbot]

But what would I like to see?

The mod is combat focussed, so how about something to make the non-combat skills more useable?

"Collector"
bonuses to lore & search

"Healer"
convert class ability to ally targetable heal (eg, turn undead, bardsong), or perhaps gain this once per 5 ranks in heal?

"Crafter"
bonuses to craft

"Tinker"
Can find "Chink in the armour" - finite times per rest add appraise bonus to attack rolls

"Ear tinker"
Can find "Chink in the armour" - finite times per rest add listen bonus to attack rolls

"At one with time"
Quicken spell feat reduces rest times

"At one with environment"
Choose an environment - rest times reduced in this environment, lengthened elsewhere

"Empath"
Animal empathy ranks provides bonus to spell DCs for certain spell schools

OK these need some balancing, but you get the idea

Grog

[Grogbot]

And some more:

"I can hear you coming"
Darkvision, class ability ultravision(?), Blind fight, Uncanny Dodge 1

"Tinker in the dark"
Appraise ranks offset armour check penalty

"Shield maiden of the Vindaloovians"
Shield bonus is doubled (ie, +2 AC for small shield, +4 AC for large, +6 AC for tower) doesn't double shield enchantments

"These aren't the droids you are looking for"
Persuade skill adds to spell DC

"You don't need to see his papers"
Persuade skill adds to attack bonus, finite times per rest

"The force can manipulate the weak minded"
Persuade adds to Hide/Move Silenty checks

These are profession type benefits, and not "sub-class kits" with progression and so forth, but they could be combined etc. for some interesting flavour

Groggus Bottuss

[FunkySwerve]

Some great suggestions, though a few arent possible, like doubling shield bonuses. Keep em coming!
Funky