Splashy Monks & Pallies (& Rogues and ...)

[Grogbot]

Hey hey

In a couple of other threads Delf has raised the issue of splash builds becoming predominant. Splash being "take one or two levels of a front loaded class"

Delf rasies the issue of monks for evasion (and skill dumps such as tumble, WIS bonmus to AC & extra attacks with monk weapons, cleave etc.)

Similar splashes occur with rogues (for skills) and pallies (for that beloved CHA bonus to save, martial stuff etc.)

There are others that get slightly more exotic of course.

If people think these are a real problem (in that there is a certain "sameness" developing), one suggestion might be for additional ability for a 40th level pure class.

Ideas would include extra smite for paladin, item for 1/day uber-summons for caster, additonal speed for barbarian, ...

This idea isn't perfect, since it gets mucked up by prestige classes so perhaps doesn't need to apply universally.

This is really an extension of the "class secret" idea but is in addition to that concept in that it only applies to pure builds.

Doesn't stop splashing on other hybrid builds tho ... (eg, why not take a level of pally with my cleric-fighter?)

I for one love splash-classes by the way ... this was just an idea that was triggered by Delf's posts

Grog

*splash*

[hiryuu]

Having played a level 40 sorc and a 38/monk/pal, I can conclusively say it will take more than a summon to overcome the splash features. Something big, like natural immunity to Mord's, might give some pause.

[FunkySwerve]

The only effective ways to stop this kind of build practice that I've thought of in the past seem too extreme. I could, for instance, disable LL if a character had only one level of monk or pally, or had fewer than 5, or 3, if they had any. It's a longer term balance issue, and is hardly new, but it will definitely be a prime topic for discussion once the hells are complete. I'll also be adding a new class, staffmaster, soon, which will bne in need of balancing.
Funky

[Lord FlashHeart]

Prob is you NEED to splash these classes. You need evasion and high reflex to survive most of the dragons breath, you need the 4 ac from tumble and the wis to ac if your a cleric or want to dual wield (specially str dual wielders). Every one has seen how low reflex no evasion builds fare against dachy (those poor druids!) In desert you need high fort for the implosion and sand. I think in many ways the mod has been built to challenge these uber munchkin builds which unfortunately means the server is rife with them. Sorc38/Pally1/Monk1 is very common, i've seen lots of Ranger32/WM7/monk1 and WM28/Fighter11/Monk1, you'll rarely see a cleric without a level of monk and anyone with a build with 10 or more Charisma can add at least 6 to saves with 1 lev of pally. Oh and I really wish I copyrighted the Pally29/CoT10/Monk1 build as these have now taken over the server.

[Xcercs]

i agree with lord flash the pre immortal game is a great challenge for ANY build and post immortal the areas challenge character build and play style ... i can speak from a dex melee and str melee and say that both pre immo and post immo there were many challenges and in the immortal only areas even tho i have splashed monk on str i still feel and act like a yoyo in certain areas i think the server works well and maybe making people lean toward munchkin builds is a good thing i know for certain i wouldnt like to spend an entire lolth/immo run rezzing some pure build because they didnt take XYZ and thus loose 30% of could be potencial effectiveness...

but in reflection i can see where the point is made having to force 1 lvl of monk ect can be annoying especially when your planning your character cos it effectivly means that you can only choose 2 classes and the 3rd is chosen for you ...

maybe more disscussion and work is needed on this im not sure but small things make a huge differance on Higher Ground and thats one reason i love it so much

[FunkySwerve]

flashheart2 said:

Prob is you NEED to splash these classes. You need evasion and high reflex to survive most of the dragons breath, you need the 4 ac from tumble and the wis to ac if your a cleric or want to dual wield (specially str dual wielders).

The fact that you allegedy need xyz feat doesn't mean that you need to splash the classes having that feat. You could simply take more of that class, making your overall build weaker. Thats what the restrictions I mentioned would enforce. If someone wanted say, evasion, and the restriction was no fewer than 3 levels in any class, then they could still take evasion, but they would have to surrender 2 more levels in another class. Usaing that as an example, your 38 sorc / 1 monk /1 pally becomes 34 sorc 3 monk 3 pally - you still get the benefits, but your casting ability suffers more as a result. Change the minimum to 5 levels in a class to take LL and then its 30/5/5 - ouch. The idea would be to set it to where the benefits of taking the feat are outweighed by the number of levels needed to get it. Its almost like only giving them the feat at that later level. Come to think of it, I COULD remove xyz feat from some classes at level one and give it back at a later level, allowing control on a class-by-class feat-by-feat, level-by-level basis. There goes one of the two reasons I haven't done something like this yet - it was too blunt an instrument to achieve the desired end. The other major reason remains however, and that is simply that I like to allow build diversity, and such a measure hurts that diversity. Minor reasons include that the server is balanced around allowing such builds, and that preexisting characters would have an unfair advantage. Of course, characters grow in power steadily as the server exapands, because of added gear choices, and due to other factors like new subrace availability, so the fact that the server balance takes into account allowing cheeser builds isn't that big an obstacle. The unfair advantage could also be mitigated by retroactively removing the feats in question from characters in violation, though that'd piss some people off severely I imagine. Could also grandfather them, I suppose, though I'm not sure I like that option. Anyway, its something to discuss, but any suggestions need to be very specific to be taken seriously (ie disallow monk evasion until level x), with solid rationale and consideration of hhow to deal with the issues I raised.
Thanks for all the great input!
Funky

[Delfestra Ruinvorn]

I would actually debate whether or not you *need* to splash classes to survive.

This is because I am a level 40 wizard. And not exactly "optimized" either.

I can, and do, fight Dachy. I solo the maze. I love the desert, and the ssithraks.

There's no doubt that not having evasion makes my life *harder*. It doesn't make survival or victory impossible though - it just means that I have to play smarter, be more careful, not solo and not expect to rush in and survive. It also means I must depend on *good teamwork*, which should be encouraged anyway!

Sometimes, I'm a complete and total yoyo. But I manage to do rather well most of the time - I stay back from the implosions in the desert and have G.Spellmantle up constantly. I grabbyhand living sand as much as possible, and also try to keep the attention of the sanders focused on the fighters. Dachy, I bucketbrigade anyway because I kinda have to to be offensively effective, but I do my best to time his breath and get out of the way. It can be done, its just harder...and if I mistime or am busy casting when he breaths...I die. Done.

Which, when you think about it is good - because invulnerability and certainty of victory is boring. Not exciting. Thats part of what makes Ssithrak so much fun. A vacation from immortality...because risk is enticing and encourages careful play.

And dangerous - because I can't simply rush into the ssithrak academy and expect to be immune to all forms of meteor swarm...I try to hang back, let the fighters take the focus...or use DOM if applicable...take the time to grabby hand casters. And above all, depend on good team work.

Which is why I suggested moving many of the saves off of reflex to reign in what you call 'splash classes'. It may end up encouraging careful play and teamwork, if people know they can't just rush the room full of red guardians because they know that their reflex save will render them immune.

Balance is always a difficult task. I think that Funky and Co are doing an excellent job of it, considering the absurd number of variables one must consider. I think the desert is an excellent example...everybody dies equally there. There is no one "uberbuild" type that is "necessary".

I expect that Illithids will be a lot of will saves...which will give people with "slippery mind" a chance to shine a bit and be more survivable - like strength builds last longer in the desert, even though they're not immune. No one should be immune to everything.

I agree with Funky that diversity is a good thing. It's why I picked wizard when I first came to the server (yes, Delf is my first character too)...so I would have the versatility of all spells. My personal style is that I like to use what I have everyplace, which is why I don't have a character designed to be optimum in every zone. Heck, until it is 100% immune to all forms of magic, I'll at least have something useful to do - and even if it is, then I'll try out my super-epic dragon and see if he works, or buff the fighters, or try the epic spells. Even if all of that was to fail, I could still hang back and be on res-patrol. But socialness and teamwork tends to be my playstyle more than build streamlining...so to each their own.

As long as I can still do that, no one skill type or feat is "necessary"...even if it is favored or makes things very much easier.

So whatever the place, chances are I'll be there as a level 40 wizard, doing my best to make it work as is

[Bakchuda]

*stands up and applauds Delfestra*

Well said! One of the greatest challenges for this mod that the DM's have done an incredible job with is class balance. I was really happy to see all of the prestige classes get the due at some point, and I don't think any of them are useless with careful building (save maybe SD, hint hint

But even for my Epic SD char, his high rogue skill are always needed at some point in a party. I've lost count of the number of times i've re-logged to go fetch him after slogging through several armies only to be stymied by a DC 80 repeating trap. A group full of tanks and artillery is great at breaking through the lines, but in many cases, all that firepower will get little to no lootz. :-)

And to emphasize what Del was saying, there really is a way to play almost any build. It will always take a group to be most effective, and any class has enough basic functions to contribute to the group.