To Funky

[Grogbot]

KEEP THE LANGUAGE CLEAN!!!

[avatarofshadows]

All in all it is just a game. I don’t know about u guys but I play it to have fun and relax, nothing is really so important as to not enjoy ourselves. It is only a game. So get out there and have fun dammit.

[Ralkain]

halaster said:

2) i dont dislike new people i play with them and thats how most of them end up on my blacklist the other way is to break rules about shouting and then pissing me off with beeing a badmouth when i tell them to stop abusing shout and tell them to read the rules

Like Arch I have resisted commenting on this thread. IMO Hal's posts have been quite telling. If I operated like him I suppose I could 'tell' him to 'drop it', 'shape up', or 'chill' (as others have more gently done) and wait for his badmouth reply so I could add him to my blacklist, but I don't operate that way.

Folks have suggested he not operate that way either, but he feels he wouldn't be true to himself if he didn't. I can respect that position, but it leaves no leeway for compromise.

Can we please lock down this thread? I don't see anything good coming from it at this point. Good travels Hal.

Dave.

[fusa]

I can understand Halaster's position, but do think he takes it to an extreme. Unfortunetaly theres some players on now that are extremely rude and pk parties much lower levels than they are. For several months when I first started playing I never saw this happen. Now its become an almost daily occurance, and feel more needs to be done in order to prevent this (is there a way to automatically send someone to hell if they pk another without a guild tag?) I really don't enjoy helping people like this at all. Also a player can be completely useless throught a run and still get the best loot if they win the roll which is also not as fair.

[hiryuu]

Lowbie squishing is reported in the DM client. It should also be in the server log, but I don't think it is, currently. Automatically condemning an action is risky business. I've seen several people accidentally killed in crossfire or while waiting for a reinvite.

Judging a player's contribution is also a dangerous game, and not one I plan to touch. The people you scrape off Dachy's floor may be solid characters in the desert. If they're unquestionably dead-weight, call for their ousting. At least it will get their attention.

At the end, this is a past-time -- entertainment. If you're not having fun and enjoying it, you need to step back and figure out why. Perhaps the only solution will be to do something else in your down time. If you go outside and shoot hoops instead, I can't really say that's bad, even if we'll miss you.

[FunkySwerve]

hiryuu said:

Judging a player's contribution is also a dangerous game, and not one I plan to touch. The people you scrape off Dachy's floor may be solid characters in the desert. If they're unquestionably dead-weight, call for their ousting. At least it will get their attention.

This is an excellent point, and I think serves to demonstrate the larger problem here: people losing perspective. It comes into play in a number of ways here, most of which I will try not to dwell on overlong. I will, however, point out that the way players improve, both in etiquette and in playing ability, is through interaction with players more experienced in both areas. Halaster's solution would cut off newer players from that source of knowledge, and also seems to lose sight of the fact that EVERYONE makes mistakes. I have seen nearly everyone who has posted in this thread do something I considered criminally stupid, at one time or another. I've done the same things myself. Hell, I nearly caused a party wipe today in the illithids, and I know a certain other dm DID cause one in the abyss. When people do this I'll fume a bit, sure, but I don't take it to heart. It is, after all, a game. Games are about enjoying yourself, and when you try to exercise too much control over how other people enjoy themselves, it generally ruins everyone's enjoyment.

In any case, Halaster, I already told you I was happy to agree to party cutoffs for loot purposes, or if the party was simply too large. You could easily party with me and/or other dms, without fear of others joining, for those or other legimate reasons, so long as the exclusion of others wasn't based on who they were, or some personal bias of yours. Or, you could party with me when some blacklisted members were in the group, and simply not rez them - I doubt anyone would ever notice. Or any number of other options. You have steadfastly ignored all of those possibilities, insisting on an all-or-nothing approach. I've tried to meet you halfway, and you've refused to budge. You claim your position is one rooted in principal, but haven't been forthcoming about what those principals might be, which makes it extremely difficult to suggest compromises, if nothing else. Your position basically amounts to, "either you party with who I say or I'm leaving the server", which strikes me as unproductive, to say the least.

You also claim you still see me as a friend, but you apparently would rather leave the server and all your 'friends' than than work out one of any number of possible (and entirely reasonable) compromises. In short, you seem to have lost perspective. I can only hope that whatever has caused this has not had too great an impact on you in RL, and I wish you all the best.
Funky

[archmage]

He he I caused the wipe in the abyss. Yes that was me, the dm who got overzealous and ran down the bridge to the first balor only to get slaughtered by like 6 ruins consecutively. The rest of the party followed my demise shortly thereafter. Sorry to the folks who autoed due to the entire party taking extended dirt naps. If you were one of the members of this ill-fated squad and still need help getting immortal, just hit me up, and i promise not to behave rashly

<---best smiley ever

[fusa]

What I meant by a playering being completely useless is for instance on one desert run one person was afk most of the time, would come back, rejoin us, ask if we're at dead bone yet fight for a while, dissappear. Even at dead bone he was afk through much of the fight, didnt even try to fight until the dragon was almost dead. Since he is there for the end he still has the same chance at loot as the rest. The next run we did he asked to join we said no.

[FunkySwerve]

I'd probably do the same, were I not in the position I'm in. And I would certainIy boot someone who was behaving in that wayt - I'm surprised you didn't. I think options like discussing it with that person, agreeing on loot division method before the party sets out, asking about it when you join, and discussing bad etiquette of this sort with the party, and telling them past offenders that they'll be booted if they do it again, are all be constructive ways to deal with this sort of thing. If you have a better loot split system, I'd love to hear about it. Avoiding outcomes like 'most useless' not getting 'best loot' without getting into the value judgements hiyuu mentioned above seems impossible to me, however.
Funky

[Argon]

As a side note re: loot splitting, sometimes when I think someone in the party has really stood out as exceptional, basically carried the party, gone out of their way to make things a success far above the call of duty, etc., I've talked the rest of the group into giving them +10 or +20 or something to their loot roll.

For example, someone takes time to teach everyone in the group (all of whom are new to an area) about an area... monsters, strategies, loot, etc. When it comes time to roll for loot, I ask the group if it's ok to give him +25 to his loot roll. Usually in a situation like this, if the guy's really been that great, everyone's going to agree. It doesn't guarantee he'll get first pick, but if nothing else it expresses gratitude.

Also, there have been times when we've had a party going, completed a large part of a quest, and then someone wants to join. Sometimes as a group we'll agree to let him join if he takes -10 to his loot roll or whatever. Again, doesn't mean he'll pick last, but gives folks that have done most of the work get a better chance at the loot. If the new person doesn't want to agree to that they don't have to join, but usually they're more than happy to accept those terms.

I don't bring things like that up often with groups, but when there's clearly a disparity in how people contribute to a group, that's one solution I've occasionally employed that's worked well so far. (Of course, tends to work best when everybody's cool and easygoing about things... would be a nightmare to try in a high-stress group... "I killed six more monsters than you, so I want +7 to my roll!" "No, you only get +4!" etc... *shiver*)

[halaster]

My prinicip is something i lived by for the last 10 years and is not to hang around negatives unless i really have no other option and to game to have fun.
Having to leave a group mid-run cause my princip or in this case my blacklist got no respect it kills to much fun in the game.
And yes your right i'm absolutly not intrested in any half-way solution on this since to me its to important for that.
Dm's used to be in about half's my group so i hope you see that when you say dm's cant be exluding it would kill half my grouping time if i continued playing
And i didnt usually blacklist anyone for doing just 1 mistake most worked themself into that list step by step

[FunkySwerve]

@ Argon - Interesting approach! I'd try it myself but I think many people would feel unduly obliged to agree. At times parties I'm in will allow late additions for xp or tags but no loot.

@ Halaster - Several of the the compromises I've suggested would allow you to party with dms, and adhere to both those principles, so either you aren't getting what I'm saying or there's some other principle at work.

Funky

[halaster]

hmm yeah i must really have problems reading your posts cause i cant see anywhere that you can tell me that stuff like happend on the sithrak run will happen again i can only manage to read it will happen again and as i said several times compromises doesnt work on me in this case its far to important for that

[Grogbot]

Hi gang,

I've pretty much stayed out of this, since I've not been on Ssiths/DB/Desert runs in question.

But I want to just throw in my 2 cents at this point. And "have a spray".

I notice a lot of players forget that the HG community is not all centred in the US (UK DMs excepted!). Examples include the somewhat inane "Good morning HG" shouts. Won't be morning in US, UK and Japan at the same time will it?

Anyway this is not a drama (and the replies from the newer players are pretty funny at times anyway). My point is this:

For some of the HG community (and the GMT+9 - +12 group springs to mind, Singapore, Japan, Aussies, Kiwis), we have a twin dilemna: we are generally a small contingent, and our post-work or after-study game time is either sleep-time or work-time for the US and UK/European contingent.

So this twin problem means that there are usually less players on and so forming a party is generally a case of "Group with whomever we can".

So I for one don't have the luxury of intolerance and rudeness and sheer pig headed arrogance that Hal is espousing. I'll party with anyone. Not everyone is my first choice, sure, why not, and I bitch and moan to my buddies via the tell channel. But I rez and split loot with generally everyone in my character range, and always seek to expand the party, since for the investment of my time I want the best return, and I can't afford (timewise) to muck about with A Chosen Few. Hell, some of the people I couldn't stand when they started I now seek out, since as they (and dare I say I) have refined playing styles it has been better for everyone. Because we were playing together.

This is not to say I haven't peeved people, and I do have a general hard-grained intolerance for PKers .

Would I be an arrogant git if I played in a populous time zone (or more so? ) I'd like to think no.

But my point is: not everyone is playing in the same environment, so show some tolerance you rude sod. Most of us have towards you. Can anyone else remember when the first saw the name Haalster? I don't recall seeing a damn halo or royal birth mark or divine proclamation when you first did something stupid question you intolerant git...

Grog The Cranky

[Breña]

It's like beating a dead horse.