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Post by halaster on Mar 19, 2006 23:29:07 GMT
Unless we can somehow settle it down to avoid more episodes like the one we had on the sithrak run, i'm sorry to say but i cant see many other options for me then to leave this server. Beeing halfway into a run when someone invite someone on my blacklist into the party without asking and then refusing to kick anyone just cause your a dm that is grave injustice imho and nothing i can live with in the long run. When someone make it into my blacklist they alrdy used up all chances.
Halaster
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Post by doomsdaybringer on Mar 20, 2006 1:31:54 GMT
just how many ppl are in ur blasklist?
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Post by halaster on Mar 20, 2006 1:56:56 GMT
about 20 or so
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 20, 2006 2:55:40 GMT
Interesting that you address a public forum message to me, when we have private messages. Of course, I already explained myself clearly to you, so I'm guessing this isn't really directed at me. If it is, I frankly don't know how I can be any clearer. I understand completely that there are people that you don't enjoy playing with. At times, there are players that I find very aggravating. By asking me to boot someone from a party, simply because you don't like them, however, you're asking me to exercise power on your behalf that even DMs don't weild. As DMs, we do not refuse to party with anyone. Why? Because we don't play favorites. If you can't handle that, that's your problem. You are a good player, and I'll be sad to see you go, but your demands are simply not realistic. If you don't understand why, imagine what would happen if someone put YOU on THEIR blacklist. In order to treat them equally, I would then have have to choose between you - playing favorites. We are an egalitarian server, both because I believe in the ideal and because this sort of behaviour is simply petty and distasteful, and I expect many players would leave if we did not adhere to that ideal. If you can't come to terms with that, then I guess this is goodbye. Of course, you could also party with non-dms, and try to convince your party to abide by your 'blacklist'. Funky
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Post by halaster on Mar 20, 2006 3:10:44 GMT
yeah i understand perfectly well what you telling me i cant play with dm's anymore with my blacklist and that basicly makes 1/3 of the people i normally group with or would make almost evry run a risk to the same annoying peoples and well that just sucks to much for me to accept and i doubt the other people i play with agree not to group with dm's to satisfy me so i'm running out of other options
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 20, 2006 3:19:17 GMT
How about ditching the blacklist?
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Post by halaster on Mar 20, 2006 3:28:50 GMT
Thats not an option for me wouldnt made a blacklist if it wasnt meant to use, and i'm far from the only one having blacklists even some dm's got that.I'm just the one that actually tells people i got a blacklist and that they on it in if they comes into same group as me very often the person also on many other groupmembers blacklist
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Post by Lord FlashHeart on Mar 20, 2006 10:33:24 GMT
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Post by Ironfang on Mar 20, 2006 14:16:14 GMT
Don't you find it rather extreme and arrogant to give the DM an ultimatum? There must be people on this server that find you and your elitist attitude as annoying as the people on your blacklist. Long time ago I tried to avoid joining parties you were in (quietly, I don't make a big production over it) but realized if I ever wanted to play with many of the veterans I like or get into a big run invariably you are always there. Noone was stopping you from logging out of party in Ssith, or the Maze, or the Desert instead you have to try to put people in an awkward position. "Kick so and so or kick me" Why not just be the bigger man/pixie and leave? Many of those people on that run had never been there myself included and couldn't hope to get there with out experienced players helping. So now we were able to see some of the really cool areas Funky has created, which I am guessing is what he wants, new players to be able to see new areas. I hope people realize this is poor etiquette and start taking you up on your ultimatums. P.S. It is spelled Ironfang_McFinn in case you need to add it your list now.
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Post by halaster on Mar 20, 2006 14:48:45 GMT
Do you think about the fact that actually did something to come on that list in the 1st place? And yes after i had a discussion with individual about why i dont group with him i can be real arrogant later when they still havnt gotten it and trying to continue a discussion i see as ended. But anyway not much more sense in arguing on this i doubt ether me or funky will change ours respective views on this so my path out is unfortunatly set not much more i can do then wish hg good luck in the future. Keep up the good work on the module Funky i still consider you a friend though i wont be around much at least not to play.
Halaster
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Mar 20, 2006 18:41:44 GMT
The fact that someone actually did something to come onto the list in the first place is certainly relevant.
It is not, however, dispositive.
For example...I like you. I enjoy playing with you. I can understand that you have certain problems with certain people, even justifiable problems.
However, in general, I do not know what those problems are. I was not there when said person got onto your bad side. I do not know what they did. I do not know what you did. I do not know what others around at the time did.
Even if I did, my judgement may not be the same as yours.
When you seek to bring all party members to help enforce your black list, you are asking us all to agree to treat someone in a certain way - based upon issues we don't know about, actions we never saw, and reasons we don't know. You also assume that our judgment is the same as yours.
Perhaps I, or others, have not had bad experiences with the blacklisted person. Perhaps we have even had *good* experiences with them.
In a way, it is unfair to us - those you do like - to force us to choose between you and someone we may not have any issue with. Especially when we don't necessarily know who those people are.
Now, in the issues between you and Ryancian, I've always sided with you - because I know you, and I don't know him. Its been regretful for me, because I don't know Ryancian - good or bad. But I do not have any problem with him. He has done nothing to me, and I don't know what he's done to you, and even if I did, I may not desire to take action to such an extreme.
But in essence, to remain with you in a group, you've forced me to accept and accede to your judgement on facts I never saw and have no chance to agree or disagree with.
If you're worried about people in your group - the more mature, the "better man" thing to do is either ask not to invite him in the first place, or if you two both end up together - then you yourself should step aside if he doesn't.
Forcing people to choose between you and someone else is just plain beneath you. And it puts us, the others, whom must choose...into a bad position. I bet you didn't think about that, did you?
And I understand Funky's position and agree with it - DMs simply <b>cannot</b> play favorites. They also cannot give the appearance of playing favorites. Not for you, not for me, not for any one person - but for the benefit of the entire server.
This server IS better than the rest for many reason, but one that is large among them is that the DMs don't make cliches that receive free items, autoresses, teleports, and the like because they're the DM's buddies. Everyone, EVEN DM CHARACTERS, are on a <i>level playing field</i>. That state of being is invaluable. INVALUABLE. And I personally don't want that being risked. Not for you, not for me, not for anyone, under any circumstance.
Personally, I'd like to see you and whoever you're irrate at go try to talk it out. Failing that, there is the Arena. But popularity contests serve no one. Not you, not them, and not the people around you.
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Post by halaster on Mar 20, 2006 19:45:31 GMT
For me this isnt about playing favorites it is about how a group respect that some actually has dislikes to other and in those cases do what i do if it is a conflict i got no side in to let the one that was in party 1st to stay when a accident happen that someone invite someone without notifying part so people have a chance to speak up then.
And if i by some means enter a group where there alrdy are someone on my blacklist i have always left the group since they was there 1st
I see that most people disagree with me on this point and to me it is a vital point to be able to avoid people i dislike to get to close and same party is close.
And this is just a game hardly anything worth breaking my principles for.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2006 20:35:11 GMT
<Im on your side hal I too got a blacklist and i know how frustrating it is when someone you dislike gets invited when ppl dont even ask if its ok to invite him, especially on big runs when those blacklist'd idiots just screw up, keep dying , and ask for loot later. But what can we do about it? Nothing. DMs cant just refuse ppl asking for invites, even if you tell them the guy is a lowbie pk'er, spawn stealer, big mouth, unprepared noob ect. Just leave party and let em find out why the guy's on your blacklist. Anyway dont leave the server cuz of somes idiots, you'll be missed much
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Post by archmage on Mar 20, 2006 22:22:28 GMT
i originally resolved to stay as far away from this dispute as possible. Upon further consideration though, I have a few things to say.
Halaster, first off, I enjoy playing with you as you well know. God knows we've been in quite a few parties together and had some good times and triumphant battles against overwhelming odds. What you have to understand though, and Delf put it as well as I possibly could have, its absolutely imperative that dm's not play favorites or even be perceived as playing favorites in any way shape or form. You put funky and avatar and myself in a very difficult position yesterday. We enjoy playing with you and you no doubt are one of the more highly skilled players on the server. That being said, as we have said many times, we dont exclude anyone from partying with us unless common sense dictates the party is just overfull, or there has been an agreement that the party is full. Other then that, we invite whomever wants to join us. Do we get fed up with people and stupid antics? You bet we do, just like everyone else. But we cant afford to have a blacklist.
Point #2 - New people. New people are absolutely critical to the health of any server. Without new people, the server will eventually wither and die. This is NOT to say that we dont value our veterans. We absolutely do. I consider many of them close friends, at least close online friends. I love partying with a solid group of veterans where combat tactics really show through, especially as a sorc. But I digress. Its important for us to bring along new people and help them out. Sometimes it seems they may not be listening. Sometimes you swear they're doing exactly opposite what you say. But you always have to remember they're new. Maybe they dont understand what we're trying to accomplish. Mayeb english isnt their first language and they just dont understand you. What we need to do with these people is either to help them along to the point they know whats going on, or to avoid partying with them until they gain an understanding. But having a permanent blacklist for reasons other then someone directly offending you may not be the best way to go about it.
In closing, I' enjoy playing with you on HG, and I'd hate to see you go. But maybe, just maybe, you could meet us halfway, and work on being a little more tolerant of the newbies and less experienced. If you're nice to them, who knows, they may someday pay you back.
Respectfully yours,
archmage-13-
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Post by halaster on Mar 21, 2006 11:29:35 GMT
1) This is not about playing favorites as i said it is about not [censored] up existing groups and about etiquette inside groups.
2) i dont dislike new people i play with them and thats how most of them end up on my blacklist the other way is to break rules about shouting and then pissing me off with beeing a badmouth when i tell them to stop abusing shout and tell them to read the rules
And sorry arch i cant make any compromises on this without betraying myself and thats not an option at all Edited for language - Funky
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