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Post by calad on Apr 15, 2006 22:40:31 GMT
I understand why the LL level limit was put in now to help make areas pre 40 more challenging. Instead of making it a 9 lvl diffrence in LL could we possibly just make it 41-60 can group and get xp. If we keep it to 34-40 thats still makes Mana and surrounding areas challenging for players and the abyss tough because immortality should be hard to get. What I have suggested would still make it difficult for players, but also give everyone a chance to group together to acomplish bigger goals. Just some thoughts Calad
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Post by fusa on Apr 15, 2006 23:07:50 GMT
The problem with lvl restictring areas is some areas must be passed through as a high level for that area. Also if you want the best loot you have got to spend time looting looking for the ultra rares, random weapons, etc. I wouldnt want to stop leveling a character at 30-35 and go on an unknown amount of loot runs if I needed a random weapon that that character specializes in. This really goes for any level. The random loot really balanced out some items that were missing (+6, +7 cloth for 1.)
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Post by Ashley on Apr 16, 2006 0:35:36 GMT
I think everybody agrees this is a great server...that isn't the point...if the server isn't good why would we waste our time playing here...I understand to build a server like HG absorves a lot hours from the builders life.. but my life isn't about playing NWN and this new LL restriction will make my free time a lottery game...if I'm lucky I will find a group to play with...so why don't leave the game like it was ...let ppl have fun
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Post by Balduvard on Apr 16, 2006 1:20:49 GMT
Oh, if anyone was wondering...the system is going to be changed, but it might take the think tank some time to come up with something feasible. Unless people want to accelerate the process by actually providing us with some more possible solutions or constructive input.
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Post by doomsdaybringer on Apr 16, 2006 2:09:54 GMT
The problem with lvl restictring areas is some areas must be passed through as a high level for that area. Also if you want the best loot you have got to spend time looting looking for the ultra rares, random weapons, etc. I wouldnt want to stop leveling a character at 30-35 and go on an unknown amount of loot runs if I needed a random weapon that that character specializes in. This really goes for any level. The random loot really balanced out some items that were missing (+6, +7 cloth for 1.) i totally agree... most of the time i spend in post immortal area are in run for non-random loot drop from dechy or ssith. i got more nice/rare random loot from drow then maze, ssith combined....
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 16, 2006 2:57:23 GMT
Why not try 8 levels? But Include LL levels?
So 34 can group with a 42? That sounds fair to me? a 40 can group with a 48? Thats around when the XP gets tough. I say after 49+ u should be allowed to group with a 60, because the XP to get to 60, is INSANE! Gotta give a break on the level 60's! They earned it!
or return to the old system because even I myself can't handle the system in place, lol.
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Post by hiryuu on Apr 16, 2006 3:12:57 GMT
It seems there are two basic reasons for the LL xp limits: 1) Anti-leeching / weeding out inviable builds Perhaps some type of silent voting system would work here. There have only been two players useless and irritating enough for me to hash it out in the party channel, but a few more I have been less than quick about rezing.
2) Keeping areas challenging Although you argue that this is just an extension of the pre-LL limits, I would argue that's not quite the case. Prior to the LL system, sure everyone in a Ssithrak run was level 40, but there's no trivial difference between a player fresh from their first immortal run, and Briggum pimped out in a full line of Dachy and Immortal gear. We've always had amped-up characters drag less viable characters through the later areas, and I've been on both sides of that coin.
Perhaps we should restrict Ssithrak and the desert to 45+, and Illithid to 50+. Perhaps we should break from the party-heavy play for a personal test tag, based on class, that you must acquire to enter those later areas.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 16, 2006 3:54:35 GMT
Some interesting ideas here, but still only half-solutions. Minimum levels on LL areas would fix those areas, but that leaves the problem of the group of 10 doing lolth with 8 members being level 50+ and the other 2 being 34 and 35. Don't laugh, I've seen it. Level maxes on areas would of course fix that, but those do cause a problem with loot access. Of course, I also considered restricting loot spawns on level 35 and below stuff to certain levels - maybe random weapons should spawn as URs as well, in 40 areas? Or we need a new class of weapon for LL characters? There's a problem with loot spread if LLs WANT to spend considerable time in the drow. Perhaps having the houses tagged at level 40 (highest loot category) is a mistake. In any case, I like the idea of level minimums, but there are some kinks still to work out. Some stray thoughts: @the people complaining of an abundance of idiots on the server- Doesn't it strike you that that might be a result of the current system, which enables idiotic play in lower levels? @ hiryuu - Didn't really understand your post. Silent voting as in x number of votes are you're out of the party? Care to elaborate? As for characters carrying other being something thats always happened, I'd agree in principle, but not in degree. LLs have made possible some pretty distorted outcomes not previously possible. Funky
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Post by fusa on Apr 16, 2006 4:30:54 GMT
One thing that could be done, but would probably require a lot of work is to design the spawns based on ll's, if you are getting a xul tag with a lvl 50, the spawns should be much tougher. This would also increase the challenge for the veterans in getting these tags. For me and others I regulary party with xul, lolth and immortal runs have become a joke compared to how they were when we first started playing. It would be nice to have to pay attention to the game instead of just being sure you are attacking, and health isn't low during these runs. I don't think having to do this with someone level 49 or less would increase the challenge, other than waiting to finding someone you know with a character in that range and have the time to help you with the tag.
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Post by Balduvard on Apr 16, 2006 5:19:26 GMT
Scaling of spawns, as you mentioned fusa, would require a lot of work. Redesigning every encounter for that or redesigning every monster to fit into a type useable by a system that could do it for us would be far too much of a timesink to be worth going into. After coming up with some ideas and discarding one due to some balance issues, I think this one might have a chance of flying--so I put it to you to evaluate.
First off, the artificial break between LL/non-LL would be removed, and the party cap would be increased. A hard cap though is too rough by itself (as evident from the current situation). With that in mind I designed a gradient sort of system, gradually phasing out the benefits of joining in a party with higher levels. Everything is measured downward from the highest level character in the party (so that the higher levels aren't penalized--they need all the benefits they can get).
For each level beyond the 10 level cap, an increasing percentage of XP will be taken from your total on each kill. At a certain point, you will lose the ability to acquire any tags, along with any XP at all (15 levels below the highest, for instance). Of course all the numbers in this post are rough estimates, which could be changed with good enough reason.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 16, 2006 6:05:39 GMT
For me and others I regulary party with xul, lolth and immortal runs have become a joke compared to how they were when we first started playing. It would be nice to have to pay attention to the game instead of just being sure you are attacking, and health isn't low during these runs. I don't think having to do this with someone level 49 or less would increase the challenge, You don't think not being able to party with 60's, 50's, etc to get a Xul tag would make it more challenging? That's the entire point of the restrictions - preventing a few superpowerful characters from carrying the rest. It's the same reason we have them for below 40s. Following that logic to it's natural conclusion, we should allow 40s to party with 1s... As for the system Baduvard posted, I think the cutoff for tags we discussed was 10 levels. Funky
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Post by hiryuu on Apr 16, 2006 6:49:25 GMT
FunkySwerve: Yes, basically a item that targets allies and sets an 'I want you gone' tag until half the party wants you gone. I'm not even sure I support the idea, though. I think it's prone to trigger anger more than behavior modification.
Balduvard: I like the gradient idea better, at least for LL range. What about doing it as distance (in levels) from the character making the kill? (Yes, that would mean party members get different xp for the same kill.) I suppose that could lead to some munchkin behavior (highbie hurts, lowbie finishes), if the high character wasn't concerned about getting the xp. Some type of participation timeout (hurt something within x rounds before the kill, or get nothing) may work, but I don't think that could be coded efficiently. It would suck if you're conserving spells, too.
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Post by Balduvard on Apr 16, 2006 8:40:49 GMT
That sounds similar to my suggestion, though your target level is instead variable depending on who doles out the most damage in the group, and the penalties for not being near that level start more immediately from what I can see. I couldn't say right off whether or not that would be a bad thing...except that it would probably give casters a hard time in the higher levels considering their kills/minute is on average lower than any of the melee classes. Still, it could be a viable option (but I'm not a scripting expert).
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Post by fusa on Apr 16, 2006 11:20:52 GMT
You don't think not being able to party with 60's, 50's, etc to get a Xul tag would make it more challenging? That's the entire point of the restrictions - preventing a few superpowerful characters from carrying the rest. It's the same reason we have them for below 40s. Following that logic to it's natural conclusion, we should allow 40s to party with 1s...
With the introduction of the random loot, if you are well equipped, and plan ahead, these tags have become a lot easier, pre immortal ac has reached immortal ac, elemental immunities are close to or better than post dach etc. I don't have a problem with scaling down xp for the xul, lolth immo runs for higher level ll's since these aren't areas that you will reach 60 without spending months in.
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Post by chainlink on Apr 16, 2006 11:23:15 GMT
Hmm, after moaning about this earlier in this thread I took my level 38 assassin on a Xul tag run last night. Due to the new restrictions (or possibly because nobody likes me we only got four non-immos including one person who crashed about four times and unbelievably we cruised it. Just shows you what good builds do especially considering we had no casters at all. One request though any chance of doing something about the items you need to get to Xul (without giving anything away) as smaller non-immortal protected parties without the required items are going to have a really hard time. I realise there's got to be some risk for the reward but this one seems a bit out of proportion for the gain.
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