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Post by holla on Apr 16, 2006 16:54:11 GMT
Seems the idea of LL party range limits has really hit a nerve with alot people. I've read through the thread and alot points of been made and ideas given on how things should be resolved regarding this, I agree that a limit does need implimenting tho as a lvl 60 party marching through mana really seems the eqivalent of a lvl 40 party doing the farm, not that I'm saying I havent used high chars there myself. I think personally that the underlying issue here is the xp increments though the LLs, and is something Funky has touched on, I would suggest keeping the lvl 6 range limit through LLs as is the case with the previous levels, but decreasing the increases between LLs from 25% to 20%. The knock-on effects of this should be that characters would reach lvl 54 faster and the problem with finding high lvl party members decreased, it should also limit the traffic of lvl 47s and over through mana etc.. as they wouldnt be able to party with non immos, this would limit abyss to lvl46 chars (a max lvl limit of 46 could be applied to abyss and the crown sanctum to enforce this too). The 20% increase would change LLs as follows : level ; xp required ; xp to next level. 40 ; 780,000 ; 46,800 41 ; 826,800 ; 56,100 42 ; 882,900 ; 67,300 43 ; 950,200 ; 80,700 44 ; 1,030,900 ; 96,800 45 ; 1,127,700 ; 116,100 46 ; 1,243,800 ; 139,300 47 ; 1,383,100 ; 167,100 48 ; 1,550,200 ; 200,500 49 ; 1,750,700 ; 240,600 50 ; 1,991,300 ; 288,700 51 ; 2,280,000 ; 346,400 52 ; 2,626,400 ; 415,600 53 ; 3,042,000 ; 498,700 54 ; 3,540,700 ; 598,400 55 ; 4,139,100 ; 718,000 56 ; 4,857,100 ; 861,600 57 ; 5,718,700 ; 1,033,900 58 ; 6,752,600 ; 1,240,600 59 ; 7,993,200 ; 1,488,700 60 ; 9,481,900. There are a select few people who have leveled chars to 60 already and may feel reducing the xp requirement is unjust as they have spent the time already to reach the target xp, I havent achived a level 60 yet myself btw, possibly these select few could be granted an item (db weapon of their choice or a UR item of choice)as recompense for this, but my feeling is that these players benefit too from having a lower xp target for future chars as much as anyone else. With regard to looting for the lvl 35 weapons this could be lessened by making these weapons only spawn from abyss and later areas (immo only)as rares or by making them URs, to make up for this tho I think the lvl 29s should be found in more areas and possibly moew often too by setting them to uncommon (I think they are rare atm iirc). With regard to the desert run time requirement issue raised by Fusa, despite being able to split this run in half its is very rarely done as remaking the same party at a later time isnt easily done. My thought on a time reducing measure here would be to reduce the hps of all the mobs unique to the desert areas by 2/5ths, this should reduce the time taken considerably and is the easiest way I could think of doing this, esp considering the large ammount of non-critable critters. It may be felt the xp given by these mobs is then too high but I wouldn't mind seeing that reduced too to make the run quicker and therefore more accessable. I also like the idea class specific areas, these could be used for logical class secret locations, which some of atm appear random to me. All the best, Holla .
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Post by Lord FlashHeart on Apr 16, 2006 18:44:19 GMT
I would suggest keeping the lvl 6 range limit through LLs as is the case with the previous levels, This is essentially the crux of the debate, i really dont see why people are up in arms over the limit when you consider that you have to deal with level limits all the way to 40 anyway. To me it seems simple - A blanket level limit for LLs similar to the 6 levels we already have to cope with. Ok extend it to maybe 10 levs so a 35 can party with a 45 (could be issues as it maybe difficult to partner scripted levels with core levels?), but otherwise why is it such a departure from the 6 level limit we already are quite happy with pre-legendary?
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Apr 16, 2006 19:43:16 GMT
The reason is, for me, the fact that it would drastically reduce the number of things I could do, who I could group with, who I could help...and for no real reason IMO.
The difference between a 1 and a 20, and a 20 and a 40, is MUCH MUCH GREATER than a 40 and a 60.
40s and 60s can use the same gear, tags permitting. The places they go are the same. They can all survive in the same spots. The areas are all designed for post immortals.
You'd never take a level 20 to Mantakaloss. But you *can* take a level 40 without dachy gear into Ssithrak and survive, and triumph. I did it about 10 times before I'd even gotten a dachy amulet, let alone immunity rings, and I went from break in to ssithy, at level 40, with a non-optimized build.
The majority of my Immortal runs were done without a fire ring, which I got last. I've done maybe three, or four, immortal runs with both rings.
I think that *lower 40+* new people should have the same chance I did to try their luck at higher-level runs and raids! Playing when and where it is harder makes better players, gives a stronger sense of accomplishment and is more satisfying. One thing I haven't seen considered on the board is that this level cap also has the effect of locking "lower level" types out of trying the higher post immortal areas, or trying them with people who can be guides.
People shouldn't be kept apart...it divides the server, keeps vets from being able to locate and nurture good new people...and doesn't do anything to diminish the stupid/leech portion which many have a stated issue with.
Which also brings up the issue of kicking people and continually transferred leadership. Since most groups are pickup groups, and already have a goal in mind defined by the area they're shooting for...there IS no heirarchtical leadership. That is a function of group dynamics and the people involved, exacerbated by the crown moving for ports...but not caused by it. Its caused by groups that just work together, more than have authoritarian construction.
But concensus based kicking of useless parasites isn't impossible, just harder. People don't like to talk in group about people in group. Perhaps people should do it more, or leave the group themselves when they encounter leeches. The potential conclusion would be, that everyone would leave the leech and then they could possibly regroup. I don't know how it would work in practice though.
But I feel the root of the problem is exclusion, not exp numbers. No one wants to be able to do less things with less people.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 16, 2006 20:38:37 GMT
There are 72 people max on two servers! That really isn't all to much when u want to make a mmorpg, and HG is getting pretty big now. I don't think I've seen every area yet. The immortal run shouldn't be hard? Why you ask? Because of new content that is needed for the game to keep the players coming back. To be a serious mmorpg everyone wants there own little adventures and there own fun! Truthfully most people are out for themselves. I mean I love getting some cool loot too, but I've seen alot of greedy players and some of them are vets. Most people don't want to take the time out to help someone and teach them. They'd rather just throw them out and call them useless. I don't see why with all the new content they can add to HG that we are stuck on and around the immo run? Just because people feel it should be some huge challenge? Look at guild wars, they have the same thing. Ascension to become able to beat the story provided by the game. HG is almost the same as Guild Wars, in terms of setup. The only difference is the size of the world. Thats the thing here we all have to consider. How much more new content will be added to this module? Will it eventually end? We don't pay, should they even care about us? Don't forget about NwN2; I don't know about you but I'm going to switch.
I don't need a challenge to be blasting hard and take weeks to get setup. It just doesn't sound fun to me. Immortal should be a moderate challenge, and the immo area's should be where the fun should be. Thats where the friends are formed and the socializing takes place. I'm starting to lean towards going back to the old rules, the server was alot more fun back then.
"The real idiots are the ones that judge and don't help." -CB
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Post by Lord FlashHeart on Apr 16, 2006 22:08:49 GMT
Don't forget about NwN2; I don't know about you but I'm going to switch. Don't expect top quality multiplay servers to be available the second NWN2 comes out. All there's gonna be are the official modules on the cd until the talented 'amateurs' get their grubby mitts on the mod builder and get the creative juices flowing.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 16, 2006 22:22:43 GMT
Very interesting numbers holla. I may round them so we wind up at an even 10M. People shouldn't be kept apart...it divides the server, keeps vets from being able to locate and nurture good new people...and doesn't do anything to diminish the stupid/leech portion which many have a stated issue with. I just don't see it. I think the current setup is more divisive in the long run, because it creates poor players. And frankly, the only way I think you are getting a 40 without dachy tags through a ssithrak run is by being carried by a large group, which is what the limits are intended to stop. There ARE large differences in power between 40s and 60s, arguably larger because of the accelerated stat gains (though the hitpoint increase stays level, arguably the other major survival factor). As for saying that the immortal run shouldn't be too hard, I totally agree, but it shouldn't be the joke it currently is either. For me, the fun IS the challenge, and I want that in more level ranges than the very top. Having new content added at lower levels when CEP 2, 1.67, and CTP drop will be a big boon in this regard, because naturally everyone gets tired of the same old in the lower levels, and we haven't had much time to develop low-level areas because of trying to keep pace with LLs. Low levels should be interesting and challenging too, not something to be endured until you get to the 'real' show at level 40+. All that said, I think the server is clearly not ready for the divisions to kick in, so I'm going to roll back to the old system (level 34+ anything goes). We will be making some changes, however, with an eye at fixing some of the problems that have reared their heads in this little fruckuss. I'd ask that everyone look at holla's post, and respond to that, since he was the only one to really address the questions I asked in my last post head on. Thank you all for the input! All will be made normal again soon! Funky
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 16, 2006 22:30:10 GMT
Don't forget about NwN2; I don't know about you but I'm going to switch. Don't expect top quality multiplay servers to be available the second NWN2 comes out. All there's gonna be are the official modules on the cd until the talented 'amateurs' get their grubby mitts on the mod builder and get the creative juices flowing. lol dah, I'm bigger on single player, this is my first home for a nwn server. Nwn is the coolest offline game I could play at work =) Funky: I agree the whole reason I started Dragon the Druid was to be more effective at the LL levels. The challenge of the module and community is what I was here for.
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Post by doomsdaybringer on Apr 17, 2006 1:59:40 GMT
Being one of the 60s out there, i really dont like the XP req drop idea. I spent two whole weeks with Halaster doing desert runs whole nights just to reach the required XP (18M). Seeing new players get lv60 in no time is kinda lame considering what we've bene through to get there. And I dont see how it will help with the original problem: un-experienced players will just reach lv60 sooner, and it will be worse than it already is, imho. i dont know about everyone but i think 10m is no small number:P Of course, I also considered restricting loot spawns on level 35 and below stuff to certain levels - maybe random weapons should spawn as URs as well, in 40 areas? Or we need a new class of weapon for LL characters? There's a problem with loot spread if LLs WANT to spend considerable time in the drow. Perhaps having the houses tagged at level 40 (highest loot category) is a mistake. In any case, I like the idea of level minimums, but there are some kinks still to work out. Some stray thoughts: Funky I agree that a limit does need implimenting tho as a lvl 60 party marching through mana really seems the eqivalent of a lvl 40 party doing the farm, not that I'm saying I havent used high chars there myself. I think personally that the underlying issue here is the xp increments though the LLs, and is something Funky has touched on, I would suggest keeping the lvl 6 range limit through LLs as is the case with the previous levels, but decreasing the increases between LLs from 25% to 20%. The knock-on effects of this should be that characters would reach lvl 54 faster and the problem with finding high lvl party members decreased, it should also limit the traffic of lvl 47s and over through mana etc.. as they wouldnt be able to party with non immos, this would limit abyss to lvl46 chars (a max lvl limit of 46 could be applied to abyss and the crown sanctum to enforce this too). With regard to looting for the lvl 35 weapons this could be lessened by making these weapons only spawn from abyss and later areas (immo only)as rares or by making them URs, to make up for this tho I think the lvl 29s should be found in more areas and possibly moew often too by setting them to uncommon (I think they are rare atm iirc). All the best, Holla . the problem i see is that the loot in post-immoratal area sucks(exclude boss drop). the only time i seem random loots being drop in ssith is by Ssss'ys which make the loots in barrack, Acane, Tample kind boring:P (or maybe it was just my bad luck...only been on 3 or 4 full run plus 2 incomplated one) i personal think it kind of repel small party going there since we know cant do the bridge and so most loot we get and need, we cant use. and so if a small party try the ssith area all their would get out the run would be some xp.....(small party that doesnt include any 60 or dm) the problem in maze is that there arent alot loot whihc is ok if not for the fact that 30to 50% of the loot spot there in empty.... little loot+ tough monster( high sr, or damage shield, or the red one)+ hard map(it is a maze...)= a area noone would go unless it is for dachy or sphinx(and other thing i guess, mostly begin with "S") i dont really like the idea of lvl 35 random weapon being UR, but i can live with that.... However, i strongly opposes it and anyother rare and UR just being drop in post immortal area. 1 because like everyone said post immortal area is not for everyone... 2 if newbies or new character dont have a chance of geting them in pre immortal area they may never be ready for post immortal area. 3 there are already ton of goodies drop post immortal area( mostly boss loot ) by add more item to those list anit going to encourage new player coming in to high ground or those of us who have hard time joining spend a 6 hours for a run that can only be arranged by dm or lzz or fuse.....
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Post by hiryuu on Apr 17, 2006 5:31:51 GMT
Could the xp acceleration be linear, rather than exponential, like the pre-LL advancement? 40 780000 195000 41 975000 250000 42 1225000 275000 43 1500000 300000 44 1800000 325000 45 2125000 350000 46 2475000 375000 47 2850000 400000 48 3250000 425000 49 3675000 450000 50 4125000 475000 51 4600000 500000 52 5100000 525000 53 5625000 550000 54 6175000 575000 55 6750000 600000 56 7350000 625000 57 7975000 650000 58 8625000 675000 59 9300000 700000 60 10000000
That addresses one of my main concerns with the current limit. That is, first-time immortals can continue to party with mortal Lolth and Immortal runs for a LONG time while they build up gear for later areas. Even extending the 6-level limit, you could party with mortals up to level 46 (2.4M XP, level 50 currently). That would also distribute characters across the range, rather than vaulting everyone into the 50s after a ssith or desert run.
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Apr 17, 2006 14:17:41 GMT
People shouldn't be kept apart...it divides the server, keeps vets from being able to locate and nurture good new people...and doesn't do anything to diminish the stupid/leech portion which many have a stated issue with. I just don't see it. I think the current setup is more divisive in the long run, because it creates poor players. And frankly, the only way I think you are getting a 40 without dachy tags through a ssithrak run is by being carried by a large group, which is what the limits are intended to stop. There ARE large differences in power between 40s and 60s, arguably larger because of the accelerated stat gains (though the hitpoint increase stays level, arguably the other major survival factor). It was withoug dachy RINGS, not dachy tags. And you should know about the ssithrak runs, since you were there as Briggum...we were all doing ssithrak runs daily before LLs came out to hoard up exp, and you were frequently there, and everyone was level 40...and while I've done Ssithrak with smaller groups, I've certainly seen larger also. And I don't see the differences as larger when you consider monster power, equipment levels etc. You don't see a 20 in a 40 zone. You don't see a 1 in a 20 zone. You can see 40s in top level zones. Thats all I'm saying.
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Post by fusa on Apr 17, 2006 14:42:03 GMT
The problem with people being immortal before they are ready was happening long before LL's, back when the server was running on Dungeon Server. A few of my first characters were poorly built and even more poorly equipped and they became immortal.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 17, 2006 17:07:26 GMT
I know some people made there characters to 60 and the xp took forever to get there. I admire your dedication and throw you props for your hard work. But its time for some change I say, 10 million xp does sound fair to me, I don't want to spend a month leveling a NWN character to 60.
So one problem is redesigning the level system after 40+ so that the groups are more evened out, and we don't have one 60 babysitting the rest of the group. I personally don't know what to do, but I support the change in the XP, no I don't have a level 60. Yes I plan on making a couple 60's. But the whole point on coming to this module was about the legendary level system they had in place at first. Thats what attracted me to the server at first, wanted to check out there system.
"I spent two whole weeks with Halaster doing desert runs whole nights just to reach the required XP (18M)."
That sounds kinda accessive for NWN characters. Do we really need 18million? This module needs some type of balance. Lets say someone doing that desert run had some beef with me, so I sign on and I want to get to 60 and the only way to really get there fast is to farm the desert it seems. So I msg some people and because of politics I'm not allowed to join them in there run. Now im stuck with a 18million goal that going to take FOREVER. Not everyone wants to group with each other, thats a major problem with only 72 players.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 17, 2006 18:55:51 GMT
Being one of the 60s out there, i really dont like the XP req drop idea. I spent two whole weeks with Halaster doing desert runs whole nights just to reach the required XP (18M). Seeing new players get lv60 in no time is kinda lame considering what we've bene through to get there. And I dont see how it will help with the original problem: un-experienced players will just reach lv60 sooner, and it will be worse than it already is, imho. Im not sure what you think the problem is, but the reason I sugested the drop was that no one is able to find parties under the current system, which reducing the xp caps certainly helps with. Now, one aspect of the original problem is players not acquiring the seasoning they need, true. But the experience req drop wasn't suggested to cure that, it was suggested as a cure for a problem caused by the cure for that, the party level limits, as I think you'll find if you read the preceeding posts. And yes, I sympathize, haing invested the effort to get Briggum up to 60, but you yourself have expressed the belief the the server is going downhill due to the influx of players, so frankly I'm more interested in hearing what you WOULD do about it rather than what you wouldn't. Constructive criticism please, not gripes! Could the xp acceleration be linear, rather than exponential, like the pre-LL advancement? That looks like a fantastic setup, I was even considering a level increase after 50 of somewhere around 500k, but I think your system is better. It would certainly even things out a bit. Thoughts on a 12M limit? And I don't see the differences as larger when you consider monster power, equipment levels etc. You don't see a 20 in a 40 zone. You don't see a 1 in a 20 zone. You can see 40s in top level zones. Thats all I'm saying. Yes, usually admiring either the ceiling or the floor. And the smaller the group, the less carrying, the more dirtnaps. I imagine I could survive with a 1 on the farm if I employed some leecher tactics there, even without invis or GS I'm guessing. As long as I got rezzed with anywhere near the frequency that 40s get rezzed in post-immo areas, anyway. But you don't see that happening, as you noted, because of, you guessed it, party level limits! The problem with people being immortal before they are ready was happening long before LL's, back when the server was running on Dungeon Server. A few of my first characters were poorly built and even more poorly equipped and they became immortal. Not clear what you are trying to say here. It's an old problem, so we shouldn't fix it? Why, did it slip in under some grandfather clause? Normally, I'd assume that you were arguing from this observation that it isn't really a problem at all, but you acknowledge it as such in your post, so I'm at a bit of a loss. If you mean to ask, why haven't you fixed it before now, I would answer that 1) it's become significantly more pronounced and 2) I'm basically the only one working on the mod, with a stray exception here and there. I am only one man... ;D Funky
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Post by fusa on Apr 17, 2006 20:58:34 GMT
The problem with people being immortal before they are ready was happening long before LL's, back when the server was running on Dungeon Server. A few of my first characters were poorly built and even more poorly equipped and they became immortal. Not clear what you are trying to say here. It's an old problem, so we shouldn't fix it? Why, did it slip in under some grandfather clause? Normally, I'd assume that you were arguing from this observation that it isn't really a problem at all, but you acknowledge it as such in your post, so I'm at a bit of a loss. If you mean to ask, why haven't you fixed it before now, I would answer that 1) it's become significantly more pronounced and 2) I'm basically the only one working on the mod, with a stray exception here and there. I am only one man... ;D Funky I posted this because people will still be carried through the immortal run, even with a party level limit...it doesnt cure the problem its just creates the problem of finding a party in the range to go. With my first character which was a sorcerer, I didnt even have a rest ring until my 4th immortal run. Poeple are going to help others that are new and unprepared to go to harder areas no matter what happens. If they are good players they will see how weak their characters are and improve them, if not then they will be eventually weeded out by not being accepted into parties as often. One thing that seems to have been forgotten is... ================ Legenday Levels are a mechanism by which your character continues to increase in power after level 40. They are NOT normal levels, and they only affect some of your character's attributes. They do not, for instance, affect casterlevel, spell penetration, or attack bonus. The ONLY affects that they have are listed below.
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Post by hiryuu on Apr 17, 2006 21:08:24 GMT
Here's a 12.5M scale: 40 780 220 41 1000 240 42 1240 280 43 1520 320 44 1840 360 45 2200 400 46 2600 440 47 3040 480 48 3520 520 49 4040 560 50 4600 600 51 5200 640 52 5840 680 53 6520 720 54 7240 760 55 8000 800 56 8800 840 57 9640 880 58 10520 920 59 11440 1060 60 12500
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