Blackguard Secret Secret?

[muttonhead]

I have heard that there is a blackguard secret, or at least a special item for blackguards, but can find no mention of it on the class mod board. Is this true and if so, how many blackguard levels are required to find and use it?

[Balduvard]

Taken from the Class Ability Board :

-Blackguards with at least 35 levels(in any class/es) and the epic fiend feat can summon a much more powerful fiend, once they find a certain item.

[muttonhead]

OK thanks. I would like to make a suggestion to improve the quality of the info posted on the Class Ability Board. Under the Class Secrets subsection of the All Classes Section at the begining of that document there is no mention of a blackguard secret. I would recommend that the info for the blackguard be added to that section, as well as info for any other that classes for which class specific secret items exist in order to bring that info up to date. That would also make it easy to find as the info would be consistantly located in the appropriate place for all classes. This would also make it unnecessary to include that information in the class specific sections. Thanks again.

[FunkySwerve]

The blackguard item isn't a secret, which is why it isn't listed there. Class secrets are wearable gear, designed to prop up an otherwise wanting class, which are extremely hard to find. That's why Borian sells info on them. Having to find an item doesn't qualify it as a 'secret'. Socerers, Wizards, and Clerics, among others, have similar items for their summons, but it, like the Blackguard item, is found in plain sight. You can easily find this information by looking in the Blackguard sections of the board (where else?). I don't see how cluttering the 'All Classes' section any further would benefit the board. If anything, I'd move the Class Secrets section into the specific classes, but for the fact that it mentions that more may be added, and gives a heads-up to UMDers that not everything in the mod is susceptible to their skill.
Funky

[muttonhead]

funkyswerve said:

The blackguard item isn't a secret, which is why it isn't listed there. Class secrets are wearable gear, designed to prop up an otherwise wanting class, which are extremely hard to find. That's why Borian sells info on them. Having to find an item doesn't qualify it as a 'secret'.

What is the difference between say, the crown of radiance dropped by a respawning monster, and say, the sorc 'secret' item that is very difficult to find? Both items are tailored to their particular class, created with balance in mind, and serve the character in the same level range. Yet the 'secret' item is more difficult to come by. The message seems to me to be that if you play one of the 'secret' item characters, you are playing a disadvantaged class (at least until you find the secret item). In view of the fact that 'secret' items are more difficult to come by, it seems to me that they should offer a significant boost to the character that finds them over items that are normally found. Again, not having such items for all classes seems to indicate that there exists an imbalance between the classes.

Generically speaking, a class secret is anything specific to a particular class that you wouldn't want publicly divulged or discussed. I don't think you want people shouting the whereabouts of the more easily found class specific secret items (for example, those that give more powerful summons) or do you care about that? As it is now, I'm constantly hearing people in shout being rebuked for discussing these items. You are making a distinction based on the reasoning behind creating different types of class secrets; that is to say, secret items that exist to balance character class against character class and secret items that exist to balance characters vs. monsters. As a player it's nice to know that the mod developer has considered these issues, but more importantly, I want to be able to go to one place to figure out what I need to know about the class I'm playing (or thinking of playing). Having it in multiple places (as it is now) leads to possible confusion. Therefore...

If anything, I'd move the Class Secrets section into the specific classes,

...this seems to me to be a great idea. You could then simply replace the class secrets section with a generic statement to the effect of "Secret items exist in this mod to balance character classes against each other and secret (do you really want to say secret?) items exist to balance play between players and monsters. These items are all specific to their respective classes and are not UMDable. 'Secret Items' should not be discussed in the shout channel." You could then create a bullet for each category of "Secret Item" in the class specific mod sections.

[FunkySwerve]

muttonhead said:

What is the difference between say, the crown of radiance dropped by a respawning monster, and say, the sorc 'secret' item that is very difficult to find? Both items are tailored to their particular class, created with balance in mind, and serve the character in the same level range. Yet the 'secret' item is more difficult to come by.

You just partially answered your own question. 'Created with balance in mind' is not the same as 'designed to prop up an otherwise wanting class', either. All items enhance a character's power in some way, but not all are tailored to redress class weaknesses. You also completely overlooked the 'wearable' part of the definition. Many other items exist that pertain to a specific class, but only enhance or add a class ability. The assassin death blow (dev crit) ability and the paladin Guardian angel ability are examples of these.

The message seems to me to be that if you play one of the 'secret' item characters, you are playing a disadvantaged class (at least until you find the secret item).

Seems to be? Thats the stated purpose of these items, to redress imbalance.

In view of the fact that 'secret' items are more difficult to come by, it seems to me that they should offer a significant boost to the character that finds them over items that are normally found.

They do, though in many cases they have fallen by the wayside since the introduction of legendary levels. I'm not clear on why you think this is relevant to the 'secret' disctinction.

Again, not having such items for all classes seems to indicate that there exists an imbalance between the classes.

Again, redressing such weaknesses is the purpose of the class secrets.

Generically speaking, a class secret is anything specific to a particular class that you wouldn't want publicly divulged or discussed.

Who cares what the 'generic definition' is? I already explained our class secrets above. You definition applies to anything secret with any class abilities like spell slots, not just class secrets.

I don't think you want people shouting the whereabouts of the more easily found class specific secret items (for example, those that give more powerful summons) or do you care about that? As it is now, I'm constantly hearing people in shout being rebuked for discussing these items.

We discourage shouting in general in favor of party talk and tells. Shouting a question is fine, but we ask people to use tells unless the answer is likely to be of broader interest (which is why you'll occasionally see me respond to a question in shout). We also encourage people to find by exploring, which is why you'll see shouts asking where things are shushed. We especially discourage discussion of secrets, because such have a distinct monetary value; a request for the location of a secret is the equivalent of shouting asking for 100M gold. I also discourage divulging location of keys, telling people to go look for them, but that in no way makes them 'secret'.

I want to be able to go to one place to figure out what I need to know about the class I'm playing (or thinking of playing). Having it in multiple places (as it is now) leads to possible confusion.

Putting the whole array of information about a pontential character in one spot would make a mess, so we break it down into logical units - in this case, the Board, the Item Shop books, the Subrace Board, and so on. Honest opinion? You're making a mountain of a molehill. Anyone confused by the board as it is would probably blow a fuse when confronted by legendary levels, in any case.

...this seems to me to be a great idea.

Thanks. Of course, I already explained some of the reasons why I haven't done that. When we are certain there will be no more class secrets, and that none of the existing ones will be removed in favor of enhhanced abilities, I may do it.

Funky

[muttonhead]

By sorc 'secret item' I was reffering to the wearable one. The point of my comparison was to point out that there really is not much difference between the equipment of the various classes wether they had to find 'secret' item gear, or they found thier gear on monster drops. However, there is a considerable difference in difficulty in obtaining them. Your comments confirmed this. So I find myself wondering what incentive I have as a player to choose a class I know I'm going to have to spend alot of time and gold on to get that class compareable to another class that doesnt need a secret item to boost abilities. If you make the 'secret' items more powerful than items that non-'secret' item class get, then there is still an imbalance at the top end. So it seems to me that something should be done to remedy this. Perhaps make 'secret' items available for all classes with a view to balancing the classes in comparison with each other.

I defined "class secret" generically because that is all that a new player is going to care about. As someone playing a particular class, I don't care wether a particular secret is wearable or not, or even wether or not that secret exists to achieve balance between classes, or balance between characters and monsters. All I care about is what I need to know in order to find and use that secret, what level range will this secret be useful in, and optionally what the secret does. In a well designed mod, as yours is (at least up to level 40 at this point), balance should be assumable by the player.

funkyswerve said:

I also discourage divulging location of keys, telling people to go look for them, but that in no way makes them 'secret'.

Sure it does. Perhaps I should have said "by standard definition" rather than "generically speaking". If you don't label something as a secret, you can't reasonably expect people to avoid publicly discussing it. Once the question airs over shout, there is little a DM can do (assuming there is even one on at the time) to prevent the information from being given (over shout or tell). You also would be unjustified in taking corrective action against an abuser since the restriction was not published.

Honest opinion? You're making a mountain of a molehill. Anyone confused by the board as it is would probably blow a fuse when confronted by legendary levels, in any case.

Well it confused me, and I have no problem at all with the ledgendary level system. When I saw "Class" Secrets" in the section title, I assumed that meant all class secrets. And "wearable items" could be interpreted as including those items that are in a character's inventory. The additional comment in the Class Secrets section that there are other secrets in the the game that exist for the purposes of class balancing implies that there are more class secrets not mentioned on the board (which could be wearable or not -- again what does this matter to the player?); where do I find out information about those? You may think that I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, but really I'm just trying to make suggestions to help improve the quality of the documentation.

When we are certain there will be no more class secrets, and that none of the existing ones will be removed in favor of enhhanced abilities, I may do it.

What relevance are potential class secret changes to including this information on the board in the docks? In my opinion, including this information is of little value to the prospective PC and might actually be hurting the mod because it could adversely affect player class choices. You could take all that class specific info and transfer it from the board to the books in the item shop where players normally go to do class research. That way they wouldn't have to run back and forth to different places to find the info they are looking for, in fact, they could buy the books if they wanted a readily available reference for whatever they might want to know about their specific classes.

So my recommendation is to leave what is of promotional value, and what is of importance to new player character creation, on the boards at the docks and move the class specific info into the books. In the books, specify both types of class secret items (wearable and non-wearable) as secrets if you want people to avoid openly discussing them. I can understand wanting players to know how you've worked to distinguish your mod from others, but do you really need to include all that class specific info on the boards? In my opinion, all that class specific info clutters up the already overwhelming amount of info that greets the new player on the boards at the docks.

[FunkySwerve]

Your assumptions are getting you into trouble again. I'll try one last time to explain, but I can't sink much more time on trivialities.

muttonhead said:

By sorc 'secret item' I was reffering to the wearable one.

Please avoid using pronouns - that was completely impossible to tell from context.

The point of my comparison was to point out that there really is not much difference between the equipment of the various classes wether they had to find 'secret' item gear, or they found thier gear on monster drops. However, there is a considerable difference in difficulty in obtaining them. Your comments confirmed this.

Only a misreading of my comments, with some mistaken assumptions, could support that conclusion. The secret items are 'extra', icing on the cake. Their point is to shore up classes with weaknesses, and they wouldn't serve that purpose at all if they had equivalents out in the world that could be used by anyone. It also seems rediculously premature to come to this conclusion based on having played one? character to level 40 - you can't have seen more than a small fraction of the items the mod has to offer by that point.

So I find myself wondering what incentive I have as a player to choose a class I know I'm going to have to spend alot of time and gold on to get that class compareable to another class that doesnt need a secret item to boost abilities.

Ask the dozens of sorcs, pallies, wizards, etc on the server. All classes will cost you a boatload. 100M may sound like a lot to a newcomer, but a look at the markets will tell a different story. As for time, once you know where the secret is via word of mouth or a payment to Borian, the time to get them is minimal.

If you make the 'secret' items more powerful than items that non-'secret' item class get, then there is still an imbalance at the top end.

You are confusing imbalance of items and imbalance of classes. It is only the latter that concerns me, and we must have the former if items are to be used to redress the latter.

So it seems to me that something should be done to remedy this. Perhaps make 'secret' items available for all classes with a view to balancing the classes in comparison with each other.

Again, not all classes are created equal. If they all got secret items designed to help prop up their weaknesses, it wouldn't help equalize the classes at all, which, again, is the entire point of class secrets. Not sure why that's so confusing to you.

I defined "class secret" generically because that is all that a new player is going to care about. As someone playing a particular class, I don't care wether a particular secret is wearable or not, or even wether or not that secret exists to achieve balance between classes, or balance between characters and monsters. All I care about is what I need to know in order to find and use that secret, what level range will this secret be useful in, and optionally what the secret does.

You just finished wondering about class imbalances and incentives to play those classes based on the existence of those secrets, so by your own reasoniung that is not all a new player cares about. It's pretty difficult to help clear up your confusion when you abren't clear.

funkyswerve said:

I also discourage divulging location of keys, telling people to go look for them, but that in no way makes them 'secret'.

Sure it does.

No, it really doesn't. If it did, everything on the server not in town would be 'secret'. My point here was that encouraging exploration by discouraging dissemination of this type of information is irrelevant to whether an item is a secret, by any definitiion of the word. I do that for everything not in town, generally speaking. This especially holds true in shout, where we discourage exchanges even more broadly to cut down on shout clutter.

Perhaps I should have said "by standard definition" rather than "generically speaking". If you don't label something as a secret, you can't reasonably expect people to avoid publicly discussing it. Once the question airs over shout, there is little a DM can do (assuming there is even one on at the time) to prevent the information from being given (over shout or tell). You also would be unjustified in taking corrective action against an abuser since the restriction was not published.

Again with the assumptions. No one said we expect that. To the contrary, I'm certain that plenty of information on actual secrets is divulged every day. We just don't want it discussed on shout, and won't give it out as dms. You won't find anything in the server rules about divulging class secrets, though I'm guessing you haven't read them. And we have never taken 'corrective action' for said non-infraction.

Well it confused me,

Only until Baldy quoted a single line from them that you pretty clearly hadn't bothered to read.

and I have no problem at all with the ledgendary level system.

We won't really know that until you gain legendary levels, now will we? No offense - you said you are level 40, correct?

When I saw "Class" Secrets" in the section title, I assumed that meant all class secrets.

Yup, shockingly, it does. Your first non--erroneous assumption here. Need to go easy on the other assumtpions, however, since they have apparently lead you to the conclusion that this is not the case.

And "wearable items" could be interpreted as including those items that are in a character's inventory.

I spose they could, though it's a stretch, but the board makes no mention of wearability, that was simply something I mentioned here, since you asked what the differences were. You didn't ask what the salient differences to new players were.

The additional comment in the Class Secrets section that there are other secrets in the the game that exist for the purposes of class balancing implies that there are more class secrets not mentioned on the board (which could be wearable or not -- again what does this matter to the player?); where do I find out information about those?

Actually, the board says: "There are other secrets in the game, but these are designed specifically to balance out the power of the respective classes.". The 'these' refers to the class secrets enumerated above this sentence. Had I meant other secrets, 'these' would have been 'those' or 'they'. You misread it, no doubt the source of much of your confusion.

You may think that I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, but really I'm just trying to make suggestions to help improve the quality of the documentation.

I appreciate that, but it would be more helpful if you had a firmer grasp of what's being documented first. If nothing else, you would be able to rely less erroneous assumptions.

When we are certain there will be no more class secrets, and that none of the existing ones will be removed in favor of enhhanced abilities, I may do it.

What relevance are potential class secret changes to including this information on the board in the docks?

The only relevance is the amount of wasted effort entailed. It may be difficult for a newer player to grasp, but this mod is constantly evolving. Because of the amount of information already available, whenever I change a spell, for instance, I also have to change it in every spell book, and on the webpage, and on my master list. Until class abilities are more firmly settled, it simply isnt worth trying to settle on a different documentation scheme, since more abilities, secrets, ot even different types of abilities may yet appear.

In my opinion, including this information is of little value to the prospective PC and might actually be hurting the mod because it could adversely affect player class choices.

You'll find that I am not a fan of hypothetical problem reports - they are largely a waste of time. Especially when based on a dearth of experience with the module.

ld take all that class specific info and transfer it from the board to the books in the item shop where players normally go to do class research. That way they wouldn't have to run back and forth to different places to find the info they are looking for, in fact, they could buy the books if they wanted a readily available reference for whatever they might want to know about their specific classes.

You do realize that you first advocated moving more information into a decentralized location at the top of the board, then did a 180 when I suggested a more plausable anternative, and are now simply carrying that alternative a bit further by recommending even grater centralization? Hasn't it occurred to you yet that I've obviously spent a great deal more time than you thinking about the organization of information on the server?

So my recommendation is to leave what is of promotional value, and what is of importance to new player character creation, on the boards at the docks and move the class specific info into the books.

We've already done that. The thing is, the class changes are one of our biggest selling points, along with legendary levels and subraces.

In the books, specify both types of class secret items (wearable and non-wearable) as secrets if you want people to avoid openly discussing them.

Again, there's only one type of class secret, and we don't care if they discuss them so long as it isn't over shout.

I can understand wanting players to know how you've worked to distinguish your mod from others, but do you really need to include all that class specific info on the boards?

I'm not sure why you assume that's the motive for the board. It isn't. The main point is to alert tham to the fact that they should not plan to do a standard bioware build - such builds fare poorly for the most part, a few exceptions aside. In any case, I'd ask that you try to curtail your reliance on assumptions - they are pretty tiring. For my part, I'll alter the line discussing other secrets on the class board, in an effort to make it as unambiguous as possible.
Funky

[Ironfang]

Debating with a lawyer is a bad idea, I learned that the hard way....

[muttonhead]

muttonhead said:

By sorc 'secret item' I was reffering to the wearable one.

funkyswerve said:

Please avoid using pronouns - that was completely impossible to tell from context.

Pronouns? I was purposefully attempting to be as vague as possible in order to avoid disclosing too much information about the secret. I was counting on you to have been able to determine meaning from context. It wouldn't make much sense to compare class/class balancing items with class/monster balancing items. I was attempting to compare comparable items, that means character balancing secret items vs. easy to find items (both wearable). If I had meant the character vs. monster secret item (which I still don't think you recognize as a "secret" item), I would have compared it to the 'non-wearable' cleric secret item.

The secret items are 'extra', icing on the cake. Their point is to shore up classes with weaknesses, and they wouldn't serve that purpose at all if they had equivalents out in the world that could be used by anyone.

If the purpose of the secret items is to shore up class weaknesses, then they are not icing, they are required to balance the class. The point of my example was to show that there exist non-secret equipment more readily available to other classes that puts those classes on par with those that have secret items. That such is the case is a logical conclusion of the statement: "Class secret items exist to shore up weaknesses of certain classes." If an item exists to shore up a classes weakness, then it should be readily available, otherwise you are creating a disincentive for playing the secret item class.

It also seems rediculously premature to come to this conclusion based on having played one? character to level 40 - you can't have seen more than a small fraction of the items the mod has to offer by that point.

The number of post-40 characters I play is irrelevant to the discussion. I am basing my judgments upon your own admissions using straight forward logic.

Ask the dozens of sorcs, pallies, wizards, etc on the server. All classes will cost you a boatload.

Not true, I can play a non-secret item class and not spend any extra time or money building that class up to a comparable level.

100M may sound like a lot to a newcomer, but a look at the markets will tell a different story.

I've been looking at the market for some time now and there is no small number of insanely priced items that seem to remain on the shelves for that reason. Those expensive items are put there no doubt by the small number of individuals who have managed to build 50+ characters and for whom money is not as big of an issue.

As for time, once you know where the secret is via word of mouth or a payment to Borian, the time to get them is minimal.

Which, if a character is lucky, might happen while they are still in the 35-40 level range; not because they've managed to amass 100M by then, but rather because they have been in a party that had people looking for the secret item. In any case, it takes much more time/money to get secret items then it does for most non-secret items (class specific or not). When secret items first came out, I would have had to go through about 40 additional levels of play before I found the item meant for the character I was playing. I found out much sooner only because somebody told me (possibly against the rules) where it was.

You are confusing imbalance of items and imbalance of classes. It is only the latter that concerns me, and we must have the former if items are to be used to redress the latter.

How did you come to that conclusion? If one class needs to be balanced against another, it would follow that items of differing power for each class would be necessary to even the balance of the classes.

Again, not all classes are created equal. If they all got secret items designed to help prop up their weaknesses, it wouldn't help equalize the classes at all, which, again, is the entire point of class secrets.

It would help to equalize the classes if secret items were created for all classes, the weakest class secret item being stronger than the strongest class specific non-secret item because of the extra time/cost of obtaining secret items. Otherwise, as it is now, you have a situation in which you have a secret item for one class, but not for another. Either the secret item balances out the classes, or it gives a boost the class relative to non-secret item classes. Either case is undesirable. In the first case, the player starts out knowing that they will be playing a disadvantaged character by choosing that class with at best the prospect of merely equalizing the character's abilities wrt other classes should they find the class secret. In the second case, should they find the secret item, they will be playing a stronger character than other classes that do not have secret items available. Imbalance exists in both cases.

You just finished wondering about class imbalances and incentives to play those classes based on the existence of those secrets, so by your own reasoning that is not all a new player cares about. It's pretty difficult to help clear up your confusion when you aren't clear.

Please... any player would be concerned about class imbalances. Character classes are currently imbalanced in the mod. In a well designed mod, balance across all classes is presumable. You're not trying to tell me that it is your intention to discourage players from playing certain classes are you? You might help yourself better if you stuck with the issues instead of inventing red herrings.

My point here was that encouraging exploration by discouraging dissemination of this type of information is irrelevant to whether an item is a secret, by any definition of the word.

Then you have a pretty strange conception of the definition of the word "secret", which, in every dictionary I've seen is 'knowledge kept from dissemination'. Why you discourage dissemination of the information is irrelevant to fact that you do, and that fact that it is therefore a secret.

I do that for everything not in town, generally speaking. This especially holds true in shout, where we discourage exchanges even more broadly to cut down on shout clutter.

Currently there are no restrictions on what can be asked in shout, there are only restrictions against offensive or obscene language. Yet I constantly see people complaining about various things (including secret items) being discussed in shout. You can reduce the need for others to regulate channel use, and clarify what players are allowed to discuss in shout by specifying this information in the rules. Otherwise players might be justified in ignoring these 'regulators' even if that regulator happens to be a DM because they have no consistent authoritative reference. Really, documenting what can be documented makes everyone's job easier.

No one said we expect that. To the contrary, I'm certain that plenty of information on actual secrets is divulged every day. We just don't want it discussed on shout, and won't give it out as dms. You won't find anything in the server rules about divulging class secrets, though I'm guessing you haven't read them. And we have never taken 'corrective action' for said non-infraction.

I was specifically referring to information given over shout. If you don't enforce the restrictions requested by the DM's, how can you expect people to obey them? What happens is that you effectively end up penalizing those who do obey the DM's. So where is the consistency?

Only until Baldy quoted a single line from them that you pretty clearly hadn't bothered to read.

Why should I have? I was looking for info on a class secret item and I expected it to be in the "Class Secrets" section. The comment at the end of that section lead me to believe that there might be a blackguard secret item that simply wasn't included for whatever reason.

When I saw "Class" Secrets" in the section title, I assumed that meant all class secrets.

Yup, shockingly, it does. Your first non--erroneous assumption here. Need to go easy on the other assumtpions, however, since they have apparently lead you to the conclusion that this is not the case.

Well the reason I believed that originally is because of the statement that there were "other secrets in the game". However, you contradicted that with an obscure definition of 'secret' referring to something else which you have yet to say what you think it refers to, only that you seem to think it doesn't refer to non-wearable class secret items. Maybe if your documentation were clearer, I would have known exactly where to find the information I was looking for; instead, I had to go looking somewhere else.

Actually, the board says: "There are other secrets in the game, but these are designed specifically to balance out the power of the respective classes.". The 'these' refers to the class secrets enumerated above this sentence. Had I meant other secrets, 'these' would have been 'those' or 'they'. You misread it, no doubt the source of much of your confusion.

Substituting one vague pronoun for another as you indicated would do nothing to clarify the reference. Start a new sentence and use the specific reference "The aforementioned class secret items...".

The only relevance is the amount of wasted effort entailed. It may be difficult for a newer player to grasp, but this mod is constantly evolving. Because of the amount of information already available, whenever I change a spell, for instance, I also have to change it in every spell book, and on the webpage, and on my master list. Until class abilities are more firmly settled, it simply isnt worth trying to settle on a different documentation scheme, since more abilities, secrets, ot even different types of abilities may yet appear.

I'm not advocating the creation of duplicate documentation. I am suggesting that the information be organized according to the purpose for which it is used. In fact, doing this would make your job easier since you already have some duplication of information between the class/ability board and the class/ability books in the item shop.

You'll find that I am not a fan of hypothetical problem reports - they are largely a waste of time. Especially when based on a dearth of experience with the module.

If the problem were hypothetical, I would not have had it. Instead, I'm getting the distinct impression that you don't care much for the opinions of others. How many people have offered to help you with your documentation...

You do realize that you first advocated moving more information into a decentralized location at the top of the board, then did a 180 when I suggested a more plausible alternative, and are now simply carrying that alternative a bit further by recommending even grater centralization? Hasn't it occurred to you yet that I've obviously spent a great deal more time than you thinking about the organization of information on the server?

I hope so, you are currently the mod developer. But that doesn't give you the right to slight others regarding their suggestions. Again, you are inventing a problem where none should exist. The goal throughout the evolution of my suggestions has been consistently to improve the clarity and usability of the information. The reduced workload is a secondary benefit, as I was primarily attempting to represent the perspective of the player.

I'll elaborate on my previous suggestions so you can see that the rationale for their development is consistent. Note that originally I had suggested adding the non-wearable secret item information to the class secrets section. I made this suggestion so that the player would know where to go to find information on all class secrets. Then when you pointed out that this information was already in the various class sections, I confirmed you in your idea to move the information to those sections while replacing the class secret items section with a short blurb. The rationale for doing this is consistent with my original suggestion (not that it had to be, as long it was helpful to the player); specifically, doing so would still put all class secret information in one place for player reference. My last recommendation was to move and combine all the information specific to the various classes from the board into the books in the item shop. Again, the goal being to centralize the information for player reference. This final recommendation has benefits for both the module maintainer, and the player since it would reduce duplicate information, and those books could be purchased by the player and carried around for reference. I understand there will be changes, but you'll have to update the boards and/or books anyway.

The thing is, the class changes are one of our biggest selling points, along with legendary levels and subraces.

That's understandable, but I still think you don't need all that class info on the board. Incidentally, note that the sorc and wiz are currently not listed on the board, so players would have to go to the book for these classes anyway. Maybe providing the info for only one class as a representative sample would make things easier while still being of similar promotional value.

For my part, I'll alter the line discussing other secrets on the class board, in an effort to make it as unambiguous as possible.

If you do nothing else, you could replace the last sentence in the class secrets section with something like: "There are other class specific items players can find in the game, and these items are mentioned in the specific class sections below. However, the class secrets mentioned here are specifically meant to balance the power between the classes.".

Thank you for your consideration.

[Phantanya]

OMGOSH! Stop it! Sound like a couple of lawyers goin at it in court! Arrrrrrrrrg! Your hurting my little brain!

Peace,
(and I do mean peace)
Phantanya

[FunkySwerve]

muttonhead said:

Really, documenting what can be documented makes everyone's job easier.

Right, so you want me to create more documentation to document the existing documentation, which confused you because you didn't bother to read it? Yeah...I'll get right on that. I can understand your pride maybe being a little hurt by baldy making you look silly, pointing out the rather obvious documentation covering your question, but you're carrying it to the point where it looks like you are trying deperately to prove something, rather than trying to make helpful suggestions. Getting huffy and accusing me of disinterest in the opinions of others is what I'm referring to, specifically. I have a great deal of interest in the opinions of others when they are based on experience and careful consideration, instead of bad assumptions. Which, by the way, is why I wasted as much time in this thread as I did - to clear up your confusion and help you provide USEFUL input. Of course, you would already know how much I value player input, had you bothered to read even a few other posts in the forums. I actively seek out opinions of players, just about every day, on myriad issues. But then, reading things doesn't seem to be your strong suit, does it?

In any case, I'm locking down this thread, since my explanations aren't penetrating, and I really don't have time to spare dissecting the jumbled logic of your last post, as enjoyable as it would be. Please feel free to continue making suggestions, but do try to inform yourself with the existing documentation before doing so, to save both of us time.

Funky