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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Aug 24, 2007 4:50:12 GMT
Nah, I'm not kidding, I honestly hadn't heard anyone mention diseases in conjunction with illegal immigration. And I haven't been hiding under a rock, either, I've been looking into the issue online and through interviews on TV. Hehe, I love the Daily Show! Shame we don't get cable or I'd watch it regularly instead of just in bites on YouTube. You know, I really hadn't gotten the sense that people at large are discriminating against illegal aliens, aside from the occasional wacky pundit or doomsayer, or the occasional church who for some reason feel the need to betray Christ's teachings by persecuting them. (Didn't we learn that persection is bad already? Maybe such churches should be put back in the arena with the lions for a few days...) But I suppose that's no different than the "gay rights" issue... my point was regarding governmental policy, not public behavior or misbehavior, and on the policy side of the coin the two are very, very different. Homosexual people are not breaking any sort of law of the land. We live in a time period that is more confusing then the past. Information is shared globally now instead of locally. There are more issues then what lie in America only. There are too many silly games being played in the US. People fighting over sexuality? Silly! Politics is divided by only two parties! There should be no parties so we wouldn't have this BS going on in our government right now. They would concentrate on the bigger picture then bickering over silly stuff! The problem with America right now is our government is failing us. Thats how I feel living today. There doing a terrible job, but the American people are very strong. The educational system is failing all over NY here, I don't know about other states. There is no health care for a very large amount of people (For a nation to call itself a super power we sure take care of our people). Immigration is a problem because its always been a problem. I feel only because of 9/11 has it become a bigger problem because the media is feeding it. What else are they going to talk about other then National Security. Ever since 9/11 thats all thats ever been talked about in the media. And the environment!!!! =/ I won't get started =/
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Post by bort on Aug 24, 2007 8:45:57 GMT
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article I: Все люди рождаются свободными и равными в своем достоинстве и правах. Они наделены разумом и совестью и должны поступать в отношении друг друга в духе братства. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. If only.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Aug 24, 2007 12:33:02 GMT
I think the main reason discrimination issues arise is because people complain, and the negative always gets heard WAY more than the positive. Whenever I hear some activist on TV trying to push some "civil rights" issue, I always take it with a grain of salt. Rule #1 of survey-taking: people are always more likely to speak up when they have a negative thing to say than when they have a positive thing to say.
When was the last time you saw a newscast that was composed entirely of positive stories? But I bet every week we get one that's completely negative (not that I've checked to be sure). Issues are the same way. The really serious problems never get paid any attention! We've got people complaining that there's discrimination against illegal immigrants, but from what I can tell it's always non-immigrants complaining "on behalf of the immigrants," and since people like me don't even know which immigrants are illegal, discrimination on a local level (apart from national headlines and pundits' claims, that is) is most likely isolated and minor. It's not like they're going through the Inquisition or being put in gulags. I can understand somewhat the frustration of the gay community at discrimination, as it's far more serious; there's even a church many of you have probably heard of that claims, "God hates fags," and homosexuals are often the subject of ridicule or shunning from their own family. I can't speak to this, but I know I for one am not a part of the problem. I have several gay friends, and they have been quick to laud the respect they receive from me - I treat them the same as the rest of my friends, and even though they are aware of the fact that I disapprove of their behavior, I do not go on at length about it.
Why are we so concerned about discrimination against illegal immigrants? All our attention should be taken up by weightier things, anything from treating people equally ourselves to donating food to relief efforts in Africa to petitioning our government for redresses of grievances. Things a few prominent people are saying against a group of people that shouldn't even be in our country in the first place should not distract us so.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Aug 24, 2007 14:52:49 GMT
I think the main reason discrimination issues arise is because people complain, and the negative always gets heard WAY more than the positive. People feed off negative things? Specially seeing other human beings be hurt. Look at history and it will show you how cruel all of humanity can be. The roman empire is the best example of how they slaughtered people for live entertainment. Racism is still very common in America it is just hidden better now. People know not to voice there negative views on other people in America, just because the law says they can't. But they always seem to find a way. Michael Vick is a great example, how the "Black Community (which was stated on ESPN)" is supportive to someone who tortures animals? Torture is a human trait only, you don't see animals torturing other animals (of course not!). Organized Religion is in major question today. Most Organized Religions teach hate as there policy. "If your not like us, your going to hell." With a supportive community like that, I can see why terrorism is still very common (and will always be). Organized Religion can't be proven wrong though because we still haven't even left our own galaxy, lol. We really don't know why we exist people just accept answers. (This is my views sorry if I'm offending someone, I don't find it offensive) If you go over to Thailand there holding 'ladyboy' tournaments. All human beings have the right to choose there sexuality. I personally have many "gay" friends who are far better people then most common folk I speak to in a year. From what I know from history the Entire Roman Empire was bisexual. Which most of the world was once belonging to it =) Marijuana was made illegal based on racist claims in the south about "Mexicans." There is a bunch of information about it, and even the history channel has covered a little about it. I fear I live in a country that hasn't moved on from its past, a country where we think being white is superior (like in our past). But on the other hand there are many Americans like myself who don't accept Racism, and/or Discrimination. If I ever saw anyone be true racist and/or Discriminate someone based on race, or gender, I would flip.. totally flip....
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 24, 2007 16:03:41 GMT
Again, WAAAY off topic. Any more will get deleted. Start your own thread if you want. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 24, 2007 18:30:45 GMT
Posts deleted. The issue is not that you are discussing something non-nwn, it's that you are hijacking someone's thread.
[Edit] And deleted again. Persist and you will be banned.
Funky
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Post by MightyKhan on Aug 25, 2007 11:10:25 GMT
roflmaol! I'm gone 4 days and look what "mayhem" I've caused! You know, in Holland we have similar problems concerning illegal immigrants and gay marriage... although the latter is no more a problem. erm, yeah... whatever :-\ I have not answered my own questions, so let me get started on that: I have absolutely no idea what my favourite is. I think Chinese (all of them) is a very beautiful language, mainly because of the complexity of its pronounciation. If I'm correct, the simplest form of Chinese knows 6 ways of how to pronounce 1 syllable. And it just sounds very nice. Same goes for Finnish though. Other scaninavian languages have a sort of musical, rythmical pronounciating which I think is not exactly beautiful. Rather, it's funny. English is easy. While my native language is Dutch, I have no problem speaking nearly accentless english, which is due to the massive amounts of english a Dutch child has to cope with once he starts looking beyond the TV-channels that put dutch voices in every single cartoon. That, and games, music and school. German is easy too, probably because I'm dutch and both are germanic languages, so that explains it. In highschool, when I had to choose between German and French, I chose French, and tbh, I think my german is slightly better, even with the "lack" of official education. Someone said German had to be shouted, and I agree. Shout a german word and if you dont know its meaning, it might just be an obscure curse of sorts. I do not think its an ugly language though. If I were to go for an ugly language, I think I'll have to choose for the Belgian form of dutch. It just sounds stupid. In addition, any borrowed words (from other languages) are pronounced exactly as they are spelled. But maybe I dont like Flanders' Dutch, becuase I'm dutch and live close to Flanders. I've not much taste for arabic nor slavic languages either: they're too harsh in their pronounciation. But I feel I cannot have a founded opinion on them, because, well, I have not heard them enough for that. Easiest for me to understand, is, of course, Dutch, for obvious reasons. Second comes english, third comes german, fourth must be Norwegian/Swedish/Danish. While in the beginning, it's very hard, because it sounds a whole lot different, but after you've got the feel of it, more and more words come clear, because they are very much like words in Dutch, english and german. I understand french as well, but it's slowly sinking away, because it's been quite a while since I have been to france. Hardest for me to udnerstand at this moment would be Chinese and Finnish. For me, both are mentioned in most beautiful as well, because of the mystery they are clouded in. Perhaps my favourite would be pure Dutch. Dutch without any local accents, Dutch as it's supposed to be. Although scottish is very cool as well. Khan (Edit) Note that of all of the above mentioned lamnguages I have comes across every single one of them. Which is why I have not said anything about the hundreds of african langauages, simply because I've never had any contact with those. Another thing I forgot to say is about Spanish/Italian/Porugese: I've had 6 years of education in Latin, and as such, reading those languages is generally not very hard for me. I don't like them though, mainly because they're not germanic. Germanic langages are the coolest! So forget what I said about my favourite: Germanic languages are my favourites.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Aug 25, 2007 11:26:12 GMT
Hey, it did get revived! Good. I wonder if the Belgian form of Dutch is thought of in a similar fashion to how many Americans view the southern accent? Or maybe the Canadian accent? I have some Dutch friends, and their house is full of stuff with Dutch words on it and they often speak Dutch with their children. I have never been able to figure out how to react to that language! It might get the title of "strangest" from me, just because, well, I don't know HOW to express what I think of it. Probably the one language that does that to me, can't say why. And that's neither positive or negative, just... weird!
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Post by MightyKhan on Aug 25, 2007 12:08:04 GMT
Perhaps, since it's basically not a language, just perverted dutch... I must say that dutch has some illogical ways to pronounce combinations of letters. Take ui, eu, oe, ij, ei... I can't think of any other language that has ui, although... ancient greek has eu wich is pronounced the same as ui. (pronounced as it's supposed to be pronounced, not as its pronounced by people with english as native language . Hmm, this brings an question to my mind, see last paragraph) eu in dutch would be ö (german/swedish), oe would be (b)oo(k)/(w)ou(ld). ij (y) and ei (which are pronounced in the same way, with exections) are weird too, eindelijk (finally), wich is prounced as somewhat like "eye"nduhluhk, but lijk (corpse) is pronounced as l"eye"k. Dutch isn't very weird if you compare it to other germanic languages though. Take weg (way, pron: wèch, much like scottish loch), it's similar to veg (norwegian), wich is pronounced almost the same as way. Putting it this way, it's probably english that's just weird! Because almost everything is weird compared to english... but not so much when compared to eachother. Right, the question that sprang to mind was: why do americans/english people "speak" latin and greek as if they were english? With english pronounciation I mean. Is this because of english being weird (like I said above)?
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Post by booboospooki on Aug 25, 2007 15:22:16 GMT
Right, the question that sprang to mind was: why do americans/english people "speak" latin and greek as if they were english? With english pronounciation I mean. Is this because of english being weird (like I said above)? If said person were schooled in Greek and Latin (whether it's modern or ancient), I'm sure their pronunciation would be correct. Or do you refer to words that have become adopted into the English language such as "telegram" or "inter alia"?
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Post by bhao on Aug 25, 2007 16:00:24 GMT
Right, the question that sprang to mind was: why do americans/english people "speak" latin and greek as if they were english? With english pronounciation I mean. Is this because of english being weird (like I said above)? i was under the impression, that in france, they too do that all the time with proper nouns, like english band names. but then, my knowledge of french is rather limited... (to a word or two)
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Post by cathedralmaster on Aug 25, 2007 17:47:17 GMT
Right, the question that sprang to mind was: why do americans/english people "speak" latin and greek as if they were english? With english pronounciation I mean. Is this because of english being weird (like I said above)? Probably a combination of arrogance, ignorance, and being bombarded with the wrong pronounciations all our lives (sometimes because of Church Latin, sometimes just old errors). Take Julius Caesar. Almost everytime we hear it, we're given the modern pronounciation, despite the fact that if you walked up to the man it refers to and said it, he probably wouldn't know who you were talking about. There is no soft C sound in classical latin, J is ponounced as Y or U, and his given name was Gaius, Julius was his clan name, and Caesar was the family line within that clan.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Aug 25, 2007 20:08:00 GMT
Interesting stuff. As to this:
That, I think, has more to do with the fact that English is the current lingua franca.
Maybe then it would be more of a parallel to pidgin or ebonics?
Are you talking about a phoneme, such as are represented by the symbols in the IPA, or are you talking about that combination of Roman letters? If the latter... you might have forgotten the word "druid"!
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Post by MightyKhan on Aug 26, 2007 12:59:54 GMT
@ booboospooki: I was referring to the masses, who have not had proper education in Latin. @ bhao: I have no idea, could very well be the case there too.
I think it all depends on the pronounciation of your native language and whether or no you have had the right education. Or, as cath said, simply arrogance, ignorance and hearing it pronounced the wrong way all you life. I think Julius Caesar should be something like you-lee-yoos kai-sar, instead of dzyou-lee-yoos sea-sar. I think this is probably the best example of what I meant by the "english" way of pronounciation.
pidgin? ebonics? eh?
No I was not referring to the combination of U and I as roman character symbols, but to the way a dutchman pronounces that combination. AFAIK, this pronounciation is unique among modern languages. Hmm, I just thought of the french word for eye: oeil, which is prnounced very much like the dutch ui. I think ancient greek had something very much like it as well, perhaps modern greek too, but I'm not 100% sure. In dutch, ui is one single sound, unlike with many other languages, where ui is simply u+i, such as in the word druid. Dutch knows the word druïde, which means... druid, in wich uï is u+i and not ui.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Aug 26, 2007 17:06:59 GMT
Ah. That makes more sense now. There are a LOT of vowel sounds, and rather than being a few fixed sounds, they are a spectrum, almost infinitely varied if you keep shortening the measurement used. It's more like a rainbow than a series of blocks of one color each, in other words; this is of course because the mouth muscles can move in very gradually different ways, and it's also why different people pronounce things differently. Thankfully, our brain can approximate... computer voice recognition software has to be trained to generalize, to learn where exactly the boundaries between the vowels are.
Pidgin English is a dialect of English that uses most of the same words (many with altered spellings), but in different ways. It can be followed to some extent by someone who understands "normal" or dictionary English, and can be quite humorous to read out loud, as the many turns of phrase that are standard to that dialect often catch the reader off-guard. It is not used, as far as I know, on the mainland United States.
Ebonics are sometimes referred to as "talking street," though their is more of a distinction than that implies. The word "ebonics" is a meshing of the words "ebony" (reference to black people) and "phonics." Their most prominent use, and perhaps their best example, lies in inner-city black communities and schools, and so ebonics are often associated with gangsters and rap/hip-hop music, though their use is hardly restricted to the gangster community. There are many flavors of ebonics, certainly at least a shade of difference between different areas. As an academic term, "ebonics" refers to the manner of speaking of people of African descent in general.
These are only single-paragraph attempts at characterizing these forms of communication; they are certainly incomplete and probably somewhat misleading, though I've done my best to represent them as accurately as I can.
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