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Post by dodrudon on Apr 11, 2007 9:00:30 GMT
I've noticed four main groups of players on this server, based on how experienced they are. The first group are ones new to the server, pre-immo. They have little knowledge of the importance of LL areas and are still learning their way around, and don't know what makes a good and bad build and LLs. The second group has achieved immortality with at least one character. They're trying out different LL runs, but still don't really know their way around. They have very few URs, if any, cannot identify URs in most cases, and have few, if any, immunity rings, and are struggling moving up to DB runs and such without these rings, and are reluctant to do Sissy because of its perceived difficulty without said rings. They struggle to gather gold to bid or buy these rings. The third group is relatively well off, with most of the rare immunity rings. They are experienced in most runs, but may be a stranger or unfamiliar with some of the more difficult ones, such as 'thids or the Pyramid. They can easily lead Xul up to Sissy runs, and know what to expect on DB runs. They can give solid advice on strong builds. They have most of the useful set drops, and several URs, but are always looking for more. This group is the most spread out experience-wise, with some having only done a handful of 'thid/Pyramid runs or none at all, while others are comfortable up to the second level of Hell. The fourth group are the very well off. They are comfortable and familiar with all pre-Hell runs, have all the immunity rings they need, have a large collection of almost all set drop items and enough URs to equip any character to at least nearly maximum potential. They pass on many URs, or collect them so they don't have to transfer between characters. They have enough URs to trade for what few things they don't have. They know the intricacies of making builds, and the specifics of each run, such as what KB to expect on which spawn of which map. They comfortably and usually lead all pre-Hell runs, and often lead Hell runs as well. This group ranges to those who are currently making a build to go to Hells and have the equipment to survive there, to those who are tagged all the way up to Asmodeus. Thinking back on my experience, from what has been posted on the forums, from what others have said, and from my friends, it seems that the jump from the second to the third group is the biggest and most difficult, and there seems to be very few new faces showing up in group 3, whereas I see new group 2 faces quite often. In my humble opinion, I think if something could be done to help group 2 people get to group 3, the server would hold the interests of more people. (My own friend, who has a short attention span, left after getting a few immos that were comfortable in the Desert.) However, this is unbalancing, propelling group 3 up to group 4 much more quickly if loot is changed, and also, you get out of this mod what you put into it, so making it easier in a different way would degrade the rewarding feeling of accomplishment of the mod. Group 3 and 4 seem to fuzz into each other sometimes. Getting to group 4 seems to just be a matter of time once you hit group 3, collecting URs and becoming more familiar with the mod, as well as being daring (I thought Noh to be half-crazy when he first ventured into the Pyramid, though in actuality I was just jealous ). The biggest obstacle, other than your own skill, is how much free time you have. I have a suggestion for helping group 2 get to group 3, but I'd like to hear what other people have to say first. Yes, you can survive without rings in Sissy, and Desert, but it's a much bigger leap from there to DB, 'thids, and pyramid, a leap that seems, to me at least, too few players are making.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 11, 2007 9:40:15 GMT
Interesting, would definitely like to hear your thoughts on this. Funky
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Post by zerragon on Apr 11, 2007 10:20:00 GMT
I like the fact that you have to invest a good deal of time, make good friends and connections and gather the correct equipment to be able to do the harder runs in the game. There should allways be something to strive for, so whatever change will be done, I dont hope pyramid or hells will be made easier. But as youre talking about helping people from group 2 to 3, those areas shouldnt be affected as theyre group 4 areas.
From my point of perspective, I find the difficulty of the mod, and distribution of players over the different groups nicely balanced. Over time, more and more will reach group 3 and 4, so I dont think an accelleration in this process is needed, but looking forward to see your suggestion though.
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Post by chainlink on Apr 11, 2007 11:06:44 GMT
Everybody starts as a member of the first group (unless you have a mate that's played here and can lend you stuff) and you're always going to get some folks giving up to do something else (its only a game after all). I definitely see people moving up through the groups, for example the ssith run I was on yesterday (with some of the people I helped through it a few days ago) had changed dramatically with most of the players very effectively playing their characters and incidents of rezzing being about 1/10 of what they were the previous run. New starters here now get a huge boost with the Character Build Board enabling them not to make a load of the mistakes I made with about ten of my original immortals.
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Post by Grogbot on Apr 11, 2007 11:18:31 GMT
Hey hey
For me, and for what I've seen, the big transition cost is TIME, and this comes across in three ways:
a) Time spent actually logged in b) Contiguous time spent playing c) Time zone impact
For (c), I'm in Oz, so unless I get some other Aussies or Kiwis on, or some Japanese pals (or perhaps Singapore/Philipines in a pinch) or some guys with really weird playing patterns for elsewhere , I'm stuck for either the extreme early-bird or tale-end of European or US timezones. And there aren't enough of us to go around. The only instances where I have got a lot of continuous hours together have been when I'm off work for some reason in the day - and can party with late night US groups.
Grog "Still happy to be in Group 2"
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Post by evildeath123 on Apr 11, 2007 12:13:29 GMT
wow!
You read my mind Dodrudon.
I probably fall somewhere between group 2 and 3. I've been playing here a couple of months, but have been playing NWN for years. A few of my friends came to HG after a server we used to play on closed down, and I went to a different PW. I was lucky enough to have them donate a few items and some gp which helped me progress a bit faster than the average new player to HG, but thats about where my advantages as an experienced player ended. The builds required here, and the way the mod is set up, is completely different to any server I've played on previously. Kudos to the Devs...you've made a great Mod.
The last few weeks I feel like I've hit a brick wall. Yesterday, I got my 4th toon to immo. I have found 5 URs (but without realising it at the time, traded 1 away at a rock bottom price)...and I feel extremely lucky to even have the 4 URs that I do. Just finding them is almost impossible (I think I read somewhere that the chance of them dropping is only a few %), but not only do you have to find them, you then usually only have a 10% chance of actually keeping them.
I love the way the mod is geared towards party play, and in particular, the need for balanced parties full of a variety of classes. As a DM on a previous pw, it was something I was always pushing for. However, I didnt picture the drawbacks from a mod so well geared to party play.
My friends have told me that they have builds that, with their equipment, are able to solo several areas that are good areas for finding URs. My favourite builds are melee toons, and it seems that there is very little chance of being able to solo these areas with melee toons, let alone get the equipment needed to even try this. Also, I'm in Australia, which means I usually play at a time when most of the servers have very few people on them, making it extra hard to find people to party with around my level, let alone who are ready/willing to do the runs I need/want to do.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want everything handed to me on a silver platter. Call me mad, but I actually enjoy farming areas over and over, either building up xp or looking for random drops (my friends can attest to how many toons I've made over the years, grinding away to get toons to 40, then deciding they'd be better if I changed something, and starting all over again), but I just can't see how I can progress to be a fully fledged member of 'group 3'.
I play 4-5 nights a week, for anything up to 5-6 hours at a time, and I would like to think that simply by putting in the time and effort that I'd be able to progress to pyramid and hells (I dont even know where these are yet).
So after approximately 160 hrs of my time here, I have 4 URs to my name and only 1 of my toons (a halfling death build from the builders forum) that is nearly capable of doing a desert run without dieing.
I think you get the picture, and I assume I'm not alone in feeling the frustration of not being able to make the next step and graduating to 'group 3'.
Three things I've seen on other servers *might* be able to bridge this gap.
Firstly, a Donation Box. It's as simple as it sounds. A chest that veterans can put gear into that anyone can come along and help themselves to, free of charge. Judging by the items listed on the trading forum here, and the huge bank balances I hear about, there are players that have awesome items that they dont want/need, and no need of gold either. HG has some very friendly and generous players about, and I'm sure there would be many players happy to put things in that new players would absolutely love. I'm not suggesting that anyone can walk up and find a BUR item or book, well not often anyway, but all those 'junk' items that many vets don't even bother picking up anymore, but are invaluable to new players, could be found here...and *occasionaly* I'm sure some vets would be happy to donate some rares and URs to the chest. Yes, I've seen some players hang around the Donation Box in the past, but in my experience, these players are few and far between, and generally, I've not seen it exploited. Maybe items could even be tagged when placed in the box, so that they can't be auctioned or sold in the future, but they *can* be transferred to other toons, or given away to other players.
The second way to bridge this gap could be through crafting. I'm sure some of you have experience of UOAbigails Crafting System (it can be downloaded from Bioware). For those that don't, it lets you make your own gear. It's not something that is easily exploited, as it takes a long time to be able to make anything worthwhile, but it at least gives a player a sense that, in time, they can make their own equipment which could be of a level to maybe get you through all those areas that you really need rares/URs for now (but maybe not so good as to get you through Hell or some of the tougher areas of the mod). Possibly something like up to +14 armour and weapons, but they have very few (if any) other properties on them. Also, the resources you need to find to make these items are spread all over the mod, in ever harder areas as you need to find better resources to make better items, so not only does a player learn the mod as they go, but they also get a chance to find the random loot as they get better at crafting and range further afield looking for that elusive adamantite or those darn spiders to get their silk for robes, etc. Another bonus to crafting is that all those +1 daggers that you make, while trying to build up your skill to make better items, can be sold, so you also increase your gp and are able to bid for auction items as you get better at crafting.
Thirdly, a Rest Ring. This is an item that records your last rest spot, enabling you to teleport to the place you last rested. It is a script that could be added to either the water ring or levitation ring, items that all players have (or will need to get) anyway. Many players don't have the time to put in hours and hours to complete runs, and having the ability to start off today where you finished yesterday, would enable players to have a better chance of fighting that final boss to get that elusive item. It may need to be set up that areas that have awesome set drops are excluded from this, but anywhere that has random loot drops only, shouldn't be a problem.
Anyway, thanks for bringing this up Dodrudon, I have been very frustrated over the last few weeks and I *really* want to be able to get to some of these areas I hear about, and have the chance to find some of these awesome items I keep hearing about.
...and sorry for making this such a long post, when I read Dodrudon's post, it just hit a nerve, and I had to blurt it all out.
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Post by khaine on Apr 11, 2007 12:27:55 GMT
Well, personally I fit somewere between group 2 and 3 - I haven't been to hell or pyramid, but know practically all other areas very well, I have good gear, and enough immunity rings to see me through what runs (I haven't tried pryamid, mind) can throw at me, and my gear is some of the bestnon-UR around, xD. I did once get a burr subby,w hich I used, and I have had an UR in my possetion, but someone wanted it so I gave it away, xD.
xD.
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Post by chainlink on Apr 11, 2007 12:35:55 GMT
160 Hours, pah you're a lightweight I dread to think the amount of time I've spent on HG since I first discovered it (I'm sure my wife could give you a figure!). In all honesty though, and this has been said before, you're best off finding a/some players you're happy to party with and sticking with them to learn together. I've spent most of my play time partying with a few folks that I've come to know really well (in a virtual sense anyway) and after being dragged through certain areas in a large party we've gone back again in a much smaller group (I'll never forget our original two person Ssithrak test with my assassin and my friend's bard) and tested/optimised our tactics. Obviously you get reduced random loot chances with smaller groups but your chance of getting a specific item is better and if you do the run a few times you're almost certain to get it like this. Once you get to immortal status cash should cease to be an issue as even crappy randoms dropped in LL areas are worth a load of gps (although whether there's anything worth buying at that level is dubious?) and there are lots of places with good loot an immortal can frequent with no fugue possibility.
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Post by illandous on Apr 11, 2007 12:54:18 GMT
Yup, I was actually thinking about this same topic. I'm in group 2. I own 0 ultra-rares and quite happily have about 5 immo toons. Because of the said "jump" to lvl 3 I'm hesitant on calling out Ssith runs because I think I know my way, but I don't want to waste anyones TIME. The time that one has to play the game is significant. I play normally 4-5 times a week (I think) for about a 3 hour block. at this lvl of play I don't know if I will be able to reach lvl 3 by 2008. With current toons I normally can not fit in a run because some of the runs take longer than 3 hour to complete (Build in the 30 minutes minumum to get a group and you know what I might mean) unless I just want to be dragged by lvl 60's. I hate saying to myself on a run.... Self, if your running out of time. If you run ahead here you will probally A. Finish on time or B. Wipe the party. Either way you get a shot at the loot. I know it doesn't help anyone. And I know how much people hate splitting loot "early" So lately I get a new subby from Sssith blood or Dach blood that I've traded for (Wiped on Sssith run 4 times now, ask Sk00ter how fun those runs are, wiping after 4 hours of careful play is not fun) Or I go to the desert, that I've only been in for one loot split but I've been there at least 10 times. This stops the lvl progression as it hampering the equipment that one can have for your toon to live on runs that are at a greater experince lvl. (It's hard to lead a run if your on back the entire time) At least the experience is good. Some chars here have been quite nice to me here though. I've traded for 1 immunity ring that would help with SSsithy and one was given to me as I said that I wanted to do beholders bless busybumblebee's soul for saying that I could use it and get back to him with something later. (Was told that beholders is a short run, still have not gone on it, hoping that it will be my bread and butter run) There is my 2 cents on the topic. It all comes down to the block of time that you have on your playing lvl progression. And there is nothing wrong with that. After all "Time in on the server" should matter. I've had a great time here so far and I like the sence of community here. Hence the reason that I setup a voice chat server so that the community can become even closer.
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Post by Grogbot on Apr 11, 2007 13:32:28 GMT
... even crappy randoms dropped in LL areas are worth a load of gps (although whether there's anything worth buying at that level is dubious?) ... My main use for cash is gearing up new toons till about L20. I'm a build, build and rebuild kinda guy ... and never have the sense to kill off the semi-playable ones. One reason for this is I have had several "dud builds" have a new breath of life when a server change kicks in, or a new patch comes out. (Crosses fingers that Circle Kick is one day fixed ... oh, I actually did delete those monks afterall ...) Speaking of which, for those of us who are in the remote time zones, getting toons to survive to lootable areas is often a challenge. I still recall fondly my first 1,000,000 gp loot run ... Weregoats anyone? Grog "that explains why you have so many toons but so few immortals ..." PS anyone remember long before the now almost mythical vault wipe when gold values were different? Ah, looting the battleaxes from hobgobs, they were the days, right Miles? <Edit - typos>
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Post by Ironfang on Apr 11, 2007 13:37:53 GMT
I have played about 2 hours a night a couple of years now. It does take a long time to bridge some gaps but once you do everything gets easier from then on. Desert runs used to be too long for me to last till the loot split. Now many more people have high level toons and my toons are geared up and Desert runs can be done in an hour including split.
DB was very elusive even with the needed rings again because of time, now setting aside a couple of hours DB can be conquered. Ssith can still be very time consuming but as has been mentioned before you can gather keys and do it in chunks over several days if need be.
I am very surprised at the people posting here that have 0 or 1 UR item but I guess it makes sense, it takes a couple of months just to get immo for most new players then have successful runs and then win a roll. Don't worry guys they will come.
I still only play about 2 hours a night and up to 4 or so on weekends. I just plan Hell's runs and such for weekends and level toons in Desert etc. on weeknights. I used to be upset that I never had time for runs and then Funky created Beholders and Pyramid both high level runs that can be completed in a reasonable time. (Thanks Funky)
A suggestion for a donation box? We have the auction chests, I often stick nice items in there for very little gold as a way to help new players out. If I see someone selling beetle bellies they get a huge cash infusion from me. We have returned from getting Immo tags and hand a bag with the complete Immo gear set to the first lowbie we see.
I think those that want to donate to newbies will find ways to do so.
Be safe out there 'Fang
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Post by supertrooper33 on Apr 11, 2007 13:51:13 GMT
I also am in the 2-3 range. Never seen pyramids or hell, have seen and completed every other run, although a couple well before I should have and basically was dragged around - although it was useful for keeping notes. Have about 6 URs, maybe more, although a couple of those were fluke finds. No subraces at all, which is my current craving - I love building up characters, and switch between them a lot. Time is a huge factor - a lot of people bail halfway through a run - and personally I find its better to plan one whole afternoon of gaming as opposed to short spurts, for once you are immo there is not a lot you can do in under 2 hours. One change I think that would be useful would be that maybe have a chance of rare rings dropping on the Xul/Lolth/Immo trio - not a huge chance, but some. Everyone advises doing these over and over again as a new immo to get a few levels - however, once you have been through a few times most of the gear is not useful, and this server is very gear dependent. Even a few 25% resist rings would work wonders in preparing people for Sssithy or Dachy. My other suggestion would be a few 40-42 areas, where a slightly higher level (45-48) could possibly solo, especially as a melee, with again a small chance at some rare rings especially. If they were short runs would help out those that have a limited time to play at least do something useful without waiting for a run. Finally, for those in the 2-3 grey area, which seems like a lot of people, don't be afraid to just ask to join groups - I jump whenever a run is announced, and always look around at servers for people in my range and ask to join. Most groups will say yes, and its better than waiting around for someone to ask you.
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Post by borges on Apr 11, 2007 15:53:05 GMT
In all honesty though, and this has been said before, you're best off finding a/some players you're happy to party with and sticking with them to learn together. I've spent most of my play time partying with a few folks that I've come to know really well (in a virtual sense anyway) and after being dragged through certain areas in a large party we've gone back again in a much smaller group (I'll never forget our original two person Ssithrak test with my assassin and my friend's bard) and tested/optimised our tactics. Obviously you get reduced random loot chances with smaller groups but your chance of getting a specific item is better and if you do the run a few times you're almost certain to get it like this. This is the best advice I've seen so far. Playing in small groups with your friends is good for loot--especially if there is set boss loot like Dusty or Tiamat--and great for play skills. It makes larger runs seem easy in comparison. I went from rank n00b to Hells regular in 6 months, thanks in no small part to large infusions of cash from then-strangers (thanks, DragonChyld and Stonewarrior!) and frequent play with a regular group of solid players (hi Noh, Stone, Rockink, Escapement and Storm!). The trick now, and it's harder than it sounds, is to give back that time and experience to the players in level 2. After reading this thread, I've decided to make a few changes to my usual routine: 1. Shout all tag runs for my new immos. If everyone did the same, even just for a few weeks, that would help close the gap. Yes, you will wipe from time to time when your party consists of you and 9 random individuals who heeded your call. So what? You can get the tag in 90 minutes with your usual crew, if necessary. 2. Pass on loot, even URs, that I won't use or trade right away. One of my regular teammates shocked me a while back by picking a UR flag from loot and then promptly giving it to me. I asked him what that was about and the reply was both simple and sincere: "It will just sit in my bank vault. You will *use* it." Let's see what you've got, level 4 types. Cheers, Perin
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Post by stonewarrior on Apr 11, 2007 16:01:07 GMT
I think the best way to move up the first three groups is to take the initiative and ask to join groups. I spent a lot of time in the "1st group" when I started on HG and most of my time was playing solo. It was not until I started proactively searching for groups that I moved to the "2nd group". Shouting that I as looking for a party was often futile and was at times very frustrating. So, using my PC Scry I would scan the servers looking for groups in my level range and then sending a tell to one or more members of the group asking if I could join (even now I still do this wit low level toons). It took a while to get my first UR (found it in the maze...the Band UR armor that I still have) and even then I could not use it b/c of level restrictions. What I found helpful was leveling my first toon up to level 60. It was not the greatest build but I learned the server and the runs. I did not even start a second toon until I hit 60 with my first. By doing so many runs (desert's primarily at the time as the BUR races were dropping) I was able to collect a few UR's and a nice collection of the rare immunity rings. Also, I was able to "meet" a lot of very nice and fun to party with people.
Right now I feel I am somewhere b/t the 3rd and 4th groups" and I attribute that to persistence. I had folks help me out along the way for which I am grateful and to this day I try and "pay it forward" whenever I can. But to truly move up I think you have to take the initiative. Ask to join shouted runs and if you don't have the necessary rings do not let it stop you. Remember, resistances help as well! Yeah, some might get annoyed if they have to rez you a lot but they too had to be rez'd a lot at one point. Often if you let folks know up front you are short on gear they will adjust the strategy or many times will lend you gear. Also, if you see a desert run in progress ask if you can join even if it is just for XP. If you join early enough there is always a chance you will be let in on the loot. But also you get valuable XP and you have a chance to get to know some folks. The desert can be done in an hour or less even with the new despawn scripts. You can also do Dusty and Thids in an hour or so with the right group so don't be hesitant to join b/c you don't think you can finish it. Another thing you can do is again use your PC Scry...if you see a bunch of immos in an area (the Wyrm or town) go and look...ask if they are planning a run. A lot of runs aren't announced...they just kind of come together.
Take the initiative...ask folks about runs...join when runs are announced...and don't be discouraged by announcements saying you need 100% to this that or the other. To me, this is how you can move up the "groups".
Peace, John.
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Post by nohmask on Apr 11, 2007 16:08:44 GMT
Well, speaking of the regular pyramid runs, which are now sort a trial run for people that are interesting in the "regular group, etc." both to see if they like the general style of playing those already in the group have and if (we) like theirs, I've found that there are a good percentage of people that just don't like doing runs that are that difficult. This is, after all, a form of entertainment lets remember, and some find if much more entertaining/relaxing/distracting/fufilling to make a new toon and run around the leveling areas yet again.
I've had a good number of people bail on Pyramid runs reportedly due to it being too laggy (of course they never take my advice and turn their floaty number off first, heh...), and wonder if they just dont like the smell of our Druid's shunt..so to speak..then keep an eye on where they are playing and see that they are sticking to the Ssith/Thids/Beholder/Immo run/Lloth zones...with occasional party wipes in some of these areas. Im sure that part of this is age, as the more life experience and confidence you get the more you realize you its about blood sweat and tears, not just a few good loot drops/items. After all, you would be shocked to know how average some of the gear and builds are that have done quite well in this game, and how useless some super duper gear and builds can be with the wrong tactics.....lawnmowers clog on too much grass, whereas a weed whacker can deftly sculpt ivy beds.
I have noticed recently that doing an Immo run once in a while can be a LOT of fun with new players, answering questions and such if they have any, not being an ego-rambo and just blasting through the area while they run behind commenting on how easy the run is (now that's not a good example is it? no wonder they freak on the pyramid...) but letting them work at it and feel a sense of accomplishment but being there to rez and such. I know that guilds do this for their own members, but how often do "level 4" players make a point to set aside that Hell run to do something like that with new players, or level 3 players or whatever? I know I have probably not as much as I could. The only reason I've been so hard core about recruiting and encouraging some to get that 55 and even looking at those approaching 60 is that there is a real lack of players with similar playing and socialiazing styles to pull from....that is changing fortunately as time goes on but only due to WORK on my and other's part, a concept that often is counter intuitive to those seeking recreation (of course I am part German so go figure....). I do not, however, think that this playing experince is a failure just because some people play for hours and never go past a certain level, amount/type of gear, or difficulty level of area. You will see that this is a very applicable analogy to life in general as well Dodorudowrong, I'm betting......
Oh, as a side note, my first pyramid run I waited a few weeks for dilligently keeping my eye on the scry for anyone nearing that area to ask questions of, snoop in the first part under gs behind, etc, and saw a group of mostly DMs running there, so I asked one (Acaos if I remember) if I could tag along for XP only just to see it...I had rebuilt the wizard I had (having had only two level 60 toons mind you still to this day) with Wall just for the pyramid and while I did stand far back from the mobs during this run (except for the last area...they let me along at least iin part due to the fact I had the epic wall spell), I did learn a thing or two...
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