|
|
Post by kaldair on Apr 11, 2007 17:26:00 GMT
Here's another aspect of the issue that hasn't been clearly addressed yet in this thread. One of the things that I real didn't understand was the whole "team-orientated" dynamics of this server when I started. Consider that many many new folks will come from the console/PC single player background, then stumble upon PW's. Even though I myself started with the Gold box set, early on I started playing AOL's NWN as well. Then on to UO, etc. In none of these cases, however, was the need for team play as well implemented as it is here. As a result, the "solo mode" I think is overwhelmingly the norm for incoming new folks. Certain threads both currently and in the past I think highlight this kind of thinking when it is carried too far. So, possible component of the issue identified - now what? Ahhh, that's the kicker, hmmm? Obviously, we've observed that the majority of folks can't be bothered with perusing the in-game information, nor these boards, as extremely valuable as we all know them to be. Again, based on past discussion, the "vets" are under no obligation to devote their time to lower levels, nor would I want there to be any implication thereto. Obligation or no, certainly I have at multiple times seen DM's, as well as other vets, helping new folks, both when leveling their new chars and as their level 60/DM characters. An idea I had, which may be fraught with political danger 0.o , is to have the Town Crier or another PC inform Characters (ideally non-Immo but may be a pita to do) either verbally or upon examination to look for tagged members of Guilds whose By-laws indicate that they are all about helping new folks. The two tagged guilds that I know help new folks a lot are the Reds and EO. I know already that there's a ton of other guilds & guilded players, both tagged & otherwise, that could be in the list - just saying these two are the ones I have personal experience with. Also I didn't mention Justice nor Sheinja because they don't have tags as a requirement, even though they have been too helpful for words (thanks guys & gals  . I guess ultimately for me the bridge was made by helpful vets & guilds. The point, I think, is that ultimately it's the people, more than anything else, that will bridge the gap. I'm just trying to find a way(s) to use the excellent game mechanics available to HG to connect Newbie A with Vet B ... Kaldair =) |
|
|
|
Post by sabregirl on Apr 11, 2007 18:42:03 GMT
Well I very distinctly remember lamenting the fact I was sure I'd never get an UR, course this was back when there were a lot fewer URs not the diversity of immune rings as now and just plain a lot fewer people playing on HG. But of course there's some REAL oldies about so I won't go there too much. I will say one thing that helped us was the sellers chest, not that we didn't have immune rings at all but a number of the richer vets sold off a number of them, which enabled us to fill in the gaps. I've been trying to sell off some of my extra rares and immune rings though, I'm sure I don't have anywhere near enough to supply the demand. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a donation chest as I agree it's rather hard to get from group 2 to group three, was definitely stuck there myself for a while, but I suspect it's considerably easier to "migrate" now than it was when T and I did it.  Another thing that's important, and already mentioned, is networking with people, making friends and having people to hang out with helps tremendously even if they are at the same stage as you . . . more is better, well so long as they aren't actually dragging you down. Though I do recall bringing a guy on a dustbone run . . . he dies from fire KB the whole time and lo and behold a fire immune ring drops on the run. His turn comes he does't pick it and says pass on rest . . .  I see a whole lot of people doing that . . .people that aren't vets and don't appear to have immune rings passing on rare immune rings. Those were and still are at times my bread and butter for various runs, not somethign I ever let go into the mass seller. So my other advice . . if you are not in group 4 and it's an immune ring of any kind in a split . . . grab it! -S |
|
|
|
Post by Ironfang on Apr 11, 2007 18:54:58 GMT
Though I do recall bringing a guy on a dustbone run . . . he dies from fire KB the whole time and lo and behold a fire immune ring drops on the run. His turn comes he does't pick it and says pass on rest . . . -S Funny you mention that. This week in desert same thing happened, a player whom I am pretty sure is not a vet, and only had the one immo was hoping for a cold immune ring to be able to go on SSithrak run. Seeing none in the loot passed on Sonic-shock saviour as well as some other decent rare items. It's a good chance if he didn't have a Crackleshard or any other cold immune rings he didn't have an abundace of Sonicshocks either or he could have used it for a trade. |
|
|
|
Post by khaine on Apr 11, 2007 19:20:16 GMT
Well, right after writing my piece, I went off and did a tia run... I think that most people are just scared, but really its not hard - in fact if you're in a good party its easy - shunt will mean you can use your rings however you need, increasing your saves enough so you can survive well, and your party should be able to support you, xD. I came 4th in the split, and got the boots of the songborn cos its usefull, and the druid tia ammy, xD. There was a couple of UR's. and a genie burr, but those were taken early on, xD.
|
|
|
|
Post by thedomicron on Apr 11, 2007 22:01:30 GMT
not really sure how khaine's post is relevant, but i'm opposed to the donation chest, or to a listing of "this person is available for help" etc
i hope that doesn't make me seem stingy or greedy or unhelpful, because i like to think that i've given away a significant number of items and spent hours helping newer folks with runs, or leveling in other areas etc. not as generous as others, certainly, but still i try to give back.
my problem with making it so easy for people to get items is the resulting expectation later on to jump on easy runs, to hit immo in a day, to do dustbone in 45 minutes, etc. personally, one of the biggest obstacles was the pressure i felt by others to do things quickly.
when i first started playing, i was limited to about an hour a night, 4 or 5 days a week, and as you can imagine, leveling was slow. my first toon took over a month to hit 40 and immo. in that time, i saw the same people leveling 3 or 4 toons to mid-50's. once i hit immo, these same people were doing all these runs i'd never heard of, telling me "oh you need this, oh you need that" and then talking about how nice the loot was, or whatever. now i have nothing against them, but what the experience creates is the feeling that if you're not doing what the vets are doing, you're wasting your time.
when i create a new character (much more slowly than most vets with whom i often party) i stick to powerlevling areas, i ask my high level friends to get me tagged early sure, but i feel like i'm not missing out anything. after i got my first 2 toons to immo, my third went through and explored areas off the beaten path. i used him later to understand the game. i realize it looks like i'm digressing but i'll tell you how its relevant.
creating a system whereby new players are thrown into the current of powerleveling EVEN moreso than the current "party level 25 doing rhaz, come get mega-uber-xp!!!!!!!!"" shouts will only leave most players lost and overwhelmed. giveng players items right off the bat doesn't help them other than making them want to hit level X that much faster to use said item.
imo, with the pre-legendary and most legendary areas, you should be mostly prepared to handle areas when your level dictates. for example i had a few rare rings by the time i hit sithrak levels, and while i had trouble getting the immunities i wanted for illithid run, the extra servers and improved loot more than makes up for that.
there are volumes of information out there, and some people read it, or used to anyway, and then they ask for help. a lot of players are happy playing in the pre-legendary areas, i've spoken with many players while leveling with half dozen or more L35 characters who haven't hit immortal, who seem to enjoy themselves. others, like myself try to skip the lower areas, BECAUSE WE'VE EXPLORED THEM ALREADY, if a new player is here and is very interested in hitting the later levels that's fine, but they can accomplish their goals without being led by the hand. they should ask for help and be given it, but there don't need to be signs posted.
similarly,
|
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 11, 2007 22:05:34 GMT
Maybe a 'guild' event for nonguilders, with a no-Ur loor rule and URs and ele rings as prizes? The dominance of people with burs in guild events has been bothering me...
Funky
|
|
|
|
Post by AndyDeck on Apr 12, 2007 0:03:06 GMT
Maybe a 'guild' event for nonguilders, with a no-Ur loor rule and URs and ele rings as prizes? The dominance of people with burs in guild events has been bothering me... Funky I'd love to participate in such an event, if it linked up with my limited playtimes. I've been on this mod for a while now, got I think 11 characters, 8 of them immo but none above level 48. (I love trying new combinations - each toon is a different build with very little overlap) I have yet to lay my hands on my first UR and have less than 6 good elemental rings among all my toons, so this sounds like a great opportunity. I've always had a blast whenever I've been near one of the DM-run events, like the Hells creature preview or the recent rash of dragons on the East Road Andy ------------------------------ Toons that I still play: Aerich (5 Bard/5 Ftr/30 AA 4LL) Aerthon (1 Monk/9 Druid/11 Shifter) Ando (5 HS/35 Bard 8 LL) Arna (6 Ftr/15 Monk/19 WM 1 LL) Ashard (4 Ftr/36 Rogue 4 LL) Augie (1 Monk/1 Pal/38 Druid 1 LL) Avek (1 Sorc/9 Pal/30 RDD 3 LL) Avio (4 Bard/10 SD/26 AA 6 LL) Azor (6 Ftr/7 WM/27 DD 0 LL) Toons that never worked out right: Anyndel (5 Rogue/11 Wiz) - taught me to use the CBC if I wanted an AA Grek (1 Ranger/35 Barbarian) - taught me I didn't really want a Troll |
|
|
|
Post by evildeath123 on Apr 12, 2007 1:14:17 GMT
All good advice, thnx all for the input.
Funky, I'd also love to join up with a non-guild event...sounds like a great idea to me. I was on a run a month or so ago and a DM showed up and started spawning some Hell monsters around us...It was a great eye opener as to what to expect later as my toons get ready to be able to go there themselves, and a lot of fun.
One thing that most of you have overlooked though, and myself and Grog have pointed out, is what to do when there just arent many people online when you are?
I often send tells to players who I see are on various runs, asking to join, or asking for advice on whats needed to do the runs. I'm also happy to shout 'lvl x looking for group' and do so regularly and I'm glad to say that I'm usually welcomed into groups.
I realise it is 'possible' to do most runs with 3 or 4 tanks only in the party, taking it slowly and using tactics (which I enjoy doing), but without a largeish, well balanced party, the time needed to complete these runs is staggering, and very costly. For someone with limited gold and resources, using hundreds of heal and res scrolls on failed runs adds up very quickly.
I must admit, when I started, I joined up with power levelling groups and levelled reletively fast. I started to stay up all hours of the night, always wanting to get 1 more level, or pop 1 more loot in the hope it will have a rare or UR, but when you have to pay the bills, all nighters have to be few and far between. I also hit a purple patch for about a week when I rolled some very good scores in the Wyrm and thats how I managed to get my URs. Heh, thats what lead to some of the all-nighters.
Having found, and managed to roll well enough to keep, some good items, and gained some levels, I set out to explore the server, heading all over the place solo. When you fugue and lose some of your precious items, it doesnt take long to realise that this can be a very risky way of exploring and looking for items and gold.
I have met far more generous and patient players, willing to donate their time and advice, than I have rude people. I have already started giving back to the community myself, by giving new players gold and items, explaining how to do runs, helping people explore the server, etc. Thats what makes a PW stand out from the rest, and ranks HG very highly amongst the PWs I've played on...this is a good community.
I'm not a noob to online NWN, I have experienced many good and bad PWs. I'm not that young anymore either, and have outgrown the nightclub and bar scene, and online gaming has replaced partying as my regular weekend entertainment.
I notice that it's mostly newer players saying it's hard to get from 'group 2' to 'group 3', and older players saying to stick at it, we'll get there. So, just out of curiosity, how many real life hours do the vets think it 'should' take to get there? Also, how much time do you think the average person will spend trying to get there before they give up? Presumably, the answer to the first question should be less than the answer to the second...
Another suggestion for making it easier to graduate from 'group 2' to 'group 3' might be to increase the amount of non-fugue areas pre-LL. I havent encountered a PW where you lose items on death before, and I think it makes it exciting and is a great thing. However, for a new player, it can be devestating. I know I can always get back my gold and xp with time, but the Ygrettes ammy I traded away without knowing it's true worth, or the Cracklshard's ring (and others) I've lost to the Fugue, it's possible I'll never see again...
|
|
|
|
Post by illandous on Apr 13, 2007 13:44:10 GMT
Maybe a 'guild' event for nonguilders, with a no-Ur loor rule and URs and ele rings as prizes? The dominance of people with burs in guild events has been bothering me... Funky Hmmm. From the position that I'm in, I can not gauge the gap between the "haves" and the "have nots". But I think an event of this nature would rock my socks. But I would love to see events with ele rings as prizes. This would keep out the pep's that already have them and seemingly tighten the gap between lvl's as much as anything. Ur's would be cool also. |
|
|
|
Post by cathedralmaster on Apr 13, 2007 19:52:02 GMT
The dominance of people with burs in guild events has been bothering me... It's ok to be scared of our leetness. Roxxoring comes with a natural -5 to opposing will saves. Would there be anyway to balance the regular guild events by applying penalities to characters with burs on/using bur races? Penalities that could be overcome by good choices so simply throwing on some burs won't make you supreme? |
|
|
|
Post by stonewarrior on Apr 13, 2007 19:59:41 GMT
The dominance of people with burs in guild events has been bothering me... It's ok to be scared of our leetness. Roxxoring comes with a natural -5 to opposing will saves. Would there be anyway to balance the regular guild events by applying penalities to characters with burs on/using bur races? Maybe have an event for players using only "free" or secret races? Or have events which are have limitations in what can be worn or used (R / UR / BUR). Not wanting to leave those with BUR's out perhaps you could have a separate event for those with the BUR races so they can show off? Yeah, yeah...I am still looking for a Maelelphant. LOL Peace, John. |
|
|
|
Post by sabregirl on Apr 13, 2007 20:45:50 GMT
I would welcome the idea of a secret race only guild event (or other restrictions) though, part of the problem is newer players is inexperience in playing the game . . . like say taking a drider to pillars, not knowing what to do or what types of characters have the advantage. However I think the greatest equalizer in pillars are the greater boots, have a pair of those and be remotely fast and I think pretty much anyone can dominate burs or no, course getting one's hands on them is the trick . -S |
|
|
|
Post by cathedralmaster on Apr 13, 2007 21:16:17 GMT
However I think the greatest equalizer in pillars are the greater boots, have a pair of those and be remotely fast and I think pretty much anyone can dominate burs or no, course getting one's hands on them is the trick . So the people who've won them (ie. the winning team) tend to keep winning. Maybe passing out more to the losers would help? |
|
|
|
Post by Yiazmat on Apr 15, 2007 19:34:23 GMT
Personally, I like the small program the veterans in my old server had going. We would, upon reaching a certain point of wisdom and wealth, "Adopt-a-Newbie". If a new player showed genuine interest and enthusiasm, one of us would "become his mentor". Then, the mentor would pass on his/her knowledge, help the mentee with quests, and occaisionally give an item or two that the mentee could really use. Once the mentee was decently experienced, and had a stable stand on the server, he would be released from the program. In time, the former pupil would become a veteran, and thus the cycle continued when he too adopted a newbie. This could very easily be adapted to HG. Members from group 3 and 4 could "adopt" an enthusiastic, promising member of group 1 or 2. After all, there is ALOT to learn in this module, and I know when I was a wee nooblet it could be incredibly overwhelming. Thanks to the advice and council of several veterans early in my HG career (Mainly my now-guildmates in EO), I grew to learn the ins and outs of this wonderful mod, and rose through the groups to where I am now, a regular presence in the Hells and owner of a decent store of goodies. I heartily support the idea of a mentoring program. It would cause the bridges between the four groups to quicken, and create some solid veterans in their own right. In addition, it gives the newer members a strong bond to the community. It would also drastically reduce the number of troll chars |
|
|
|
Post by khaine on Apr 15, 2007 19:41:10 GMT
Heh, I try and do this alot - but the only problem I see is the one of time - the two people will ahve to meet quite alot. I find it easier to just get a few low-level chars around and if you see a lone low level, join em. xD.
xD.
|
|
.
I see a whole lot of people doing that . . .people that aren't vets and don't appear to have immune rings passing on rare immune rings. Those were and still are at times my bread and butter for various runs, not somethign I ever let go into the mass seller. So my other advice . . if you are not in group 4 and it's an immune ring of any kind in a split . . . grab it! 
