Revisiting Schism

[dodrudon]

So what does it take to move from one of the four groups to another?

Group 1 -> Group 2
This takes mostly time, gathering lowbie equipment for the first time, learning the area of the servers, getting into parties, etc. The best way to help here is for experienced players (3s and 4s) to actively seek people to add into your lowbie levelling parties (by occasionally checking the PC scry for anyone within level, or shouting a run).

(skipping 2->3, that's the main point of this post and will be last)

Group 3 -> Group 4
This is where you go from merely experienced to a true vet. The players making this jump already know the server well enough that they don't necessarily require help, but help would still help. For instance, yes, you could grab some buddies and all do Pyramid for the first time and wipe a few times while you get the hang of it, learn the abilities, weaknesses of creatures, etc, or someone who's been there already could take you along and tell you these things. Each method has its pros and cons.

Equipment is the biggest concern here, but again, they don't need help as they already know how they can go about getting this equipment without much trouble. However, generous trades from the better off are always welcome....

There is, arguably, a group 3.5, which I'd say the majority of the server is in. Lending rings and more helps ease the hole in equipment for this group.

Group 2 -> Group 3
This is, IMO, the toughest jump to make. It requires becoming familiar with all the LL areas of the server, all of which are difficult and require varying degrees of teamwork, areas which pre-Xul places do not prepare you for. Going from the easy party-going atmosphere where everyone runs around willy-nilly (more or less) to having clear objectives and needing the group to stay together as well feeling the pain of not having good equipment is quite a paradigm shift (okay, sorry, I know I shouldn't use phrases just because they sound cool).

What can be done here? When going on any run, as long as it isn't a party full of 2s, then the 2 will have free pick of the Uncommons, and oftentimes free pick of the non-immunity ring Rares as well. URs are a matter of luck.

Time, experience (familiarity with runs), and equipment are the three things necessary for this (and all other) jumps. (Imagine a triangle, if you will, with these three at each corner.)

For 1 to 2, time wasn't something too important. You could log on and play for an hour and still get experience. Suddenly, you need maybe two consecutive hours to do runs, sometimes more. Time is mostly in the hands of the player, though finding a good party can make runs go significantly faster. For all jumps, getting experienced players to lead them (such as bringing immos along for the immo run) really help here.

Experience is something slowly gained with time, often taking repeat trips to the same area to learn them, though the number of repeat trips decreases as you become more familiar with the concepts underlying HG. This requires diligence and a certain willingness from the player to learn runs, as well as a willingness to seek out shouted runs to ask what equipment is needed to go, and then going on the run if possible to learn more. There's not much outside help can do here.

Equipment is the easiest way to help newbies. However, you don't want to spoil them either. Give somebody 20 URs and they'll never realize the value of them. This is possibly the only corner of the triangle that can be built in to the mod (because shortening the runs isn't an option, and everything you need to know is in the log, the mobs aren't gonna spoon-feed you their weaknesses).

Because of the overwhelming need for immunity rings, I suggest a pedestal or altar or some sort be added to allow users to change the immunities on their Rare immunity ring(s), so you could bring it your Elec/Cold ring after your sissy run and switch it for a Fire/Cold ring for DB. You'd have to consider location, cost, and frequency it could be used.

If you could use the stand as much as you'd like, then you'd only need two immunity rings and you're set. Any more than that is merely convenience. Of course, this isn't ideal, so the pedestal might be decreased to x times per reset per player, or make it similar to the sphinx. However, if it can only be used once per reset by ANY player, then it's like the old Dachy/Beholder runs, whoever manages to get on first after a reset gets it.

A cost could be added to the pedestal, maybe in gold or items. The price can't be too high, or else only experienced players (3s and 4s) can use it. Somewhere around the range of 5-15 million gp might be right, though 15 could be on the high end for the ones that still don't know where to farm for money. Or the price could be in rare items, such as one or two rares. Because the cost is scaled for 2s, the 3s and 4s would have no problem paying the price, but having good enough equipment and rings to do runs anyways, this would take away some of the inconvenience in suiting up for a run, and not suddenly shift the power to the 3s and 4s.

The location of the pedestal is probably the most important decision. It'd have to be close enough to town and easy enough to get to for those that don't know the mod well, but not so close that it takes no effort to get to (this shouldn't be a free nor painless service). The alignment-change altar, for instance, is probably known by all 4s, most 3s (some will probably still suggest the sacrifice method), and very few 2s. With the recent change to XP, these numbers might increase. Basically, if it's too far away, only 3s and 4s will know and use it, while if it's too close, it's too easy, which would spoil players.

This pedestal would allow 2s who get an immunity ring to switch it for one they can actually use (instead of wondering how to go about trading for one), and let 3s and 4s switch out their duplicate rings. However, one disadvantage might be that 3s stop passing on immunity rings they already have on lootsplits, making it harder for 2s to get the rings in the first place.

I suck at conclusions, so I'll just say thanks for sticking through the entire post! (unless you skipped to the end, for shame!)

[Lythe Featherblade]

Great idea with the pedestal. Maybe if you made it cost 100K xp and 10M gold with unlimited uses, (or cheaper but 10 uses per character, minimum level 40) it would be something that can help out if really needed, but prevent casual swapping around.

I'm stuck right there myself, in limbo between 2 and 3. Gear wise I have 4 UR items and 2-3 set items that I switch out as needed, and every run I'm on I'm praying for a UR race or item good enough to trade for one so that 1: it's worth rebuilding and 2: I'll be able to make a build that won't be left standing before the gates of hell.

The trading forum is nice, the biggest problem though is that everyone is trying to trade up. With the vast amounts of unused items gathering dust in vaults waiting for trades that'll never happen, sometimes I wish there was a way to borrow a little, be it with collateral or other penalties that could be worked off.

[dodrudon]

An XP cost would be a good idea, didn't think of that.

[khaine]

Maybe that its limited to rings - you can change each ring once per reset, or just change it once, so that people can decide on the most usefull setups...

xD, I'm ambivilant over the whole thing.

xD.

[thedomicron]

so wait you're suggesting something whereby you're giving up xp for items? this goes against the whole idea of GAINING xp and getting items...

and where does this xp come from? because if you do it right, you gain both at the same time. you should go where your chances of getting items and xp is best. if you're leeching xp from desert parties for xp only, then of COURSE you're not finding loot. i've seen so many people w/out rare rings PASS on loot because they missed the UR book when there are rings in the split

i think the focus on certain items is ridiculous and the true cause for the struggle with advancing through the game.

here's what happens: guy hits immo for the first time, goes on a run, gets really lucky on split and gets a ur race book, lets say battlerager. good for him. he builds a battlerager, powerleveling through to immo, then starts doing runs. goes on a sithrak run, does alright, goes to the desert, struggles, tries db and gets clobbered. what happens next? hey i need ur rings!!!!! i need such and so on items etc. i know! i'll propose a complicated, process for enabling me to get items i need so that i can keep playing how i'd like!

MAYBE, instead of complaining about how hard immunity rings are to find, you could realuize that you ONLY need rare rings to complete the majority of legendary runs COMFORTABLY 9note that you don't even need them for some parties and for some runs) and that rare rings are relatively easy to find because most vets already have their share and then some. rare rings are usually passed upon by vets, and fall to the later rounds.

may i suggest another scenario: that when you get that battlerager book, instead of using it, you do something else, you sit there and think about what you have, and what you need, and then TRADE the book. or take a ur that you need the least and trade it for a ton of rare rings, like i know i probably would.

or you go do the maze, or deepbats, or any number of areas where rare rings drop.
while i appreciate the difficulty in progressing through this game, i think that the idea of some pedastal to just give you what you want is ridiculous. the product of your pedastal is EASILY achievable by spending some time in areas where you belong, instead of the areas where you want to be. put some time into the game, find areas you like (there are many) and do runs in areas you don't every now and then, and you might find that its not so difficult as you think it is.

[dodrudon]

Yes, it's definitely achievable. But even if there's a loot point, say in Rip's cellar, that ALWAYS spawns a rare immunity ring, what are the chances it has the ring you're looking for? It's a 5% chance, about as often as you fail an implode save.

I'm not saying this pedestal should be easy to get to at all, that would totally defeat the purpose of going on runs. It should be something that you can say "oh I want to do a Sissy run, I'll run and switch my rings out and then shout it after that" and not a "hold on let me go switch my rings before we do the sissy run" affair because it takes too long to get to.

Also, the XP would be an investment of sorts, trading a bit of XP now so you can go on this run to get XP later. Heck, maybe even make it take a whole level's worth of XP away (though not de-level you) if that's what it takes to balance it.

Another point you bring up is educating new immos on the importance of immunity rings for LL runs.

Also, this post is mainly laying down a framework for which solutions can be discussed for a hypothetical problem: getting from group 2 to 3. The suggestion is just one possible solution, certainly not the only nor the best, and maybe not even a good suggestion at all!

And also I think I may have been an idiot. The pedestal would of course take an immunity ring in addition to any more cost it may incur, I TOTALLY forgot about that and thought I mentioned it, sorry!

(maybe to encourage teamwork, once per hour, similar to sphinx, but on use kills the user in a fugue zone)

[Acaos]

One thing that seems to be lost in the intense focus on immunity rings is that it really is possible to do the 35-50 areas without them.

Don't forget that at levels 35+ it's quite possible to get 15/- or 20/- to elements with uncommon or even set drops (Lolth's Slippers are pretty easy to get).

Between 35 and 45, do the Drow slums and houses, the deepbats, the water shrike caves, Axilar's crypt, Wastalgraniq, and the defiled temple. These can even be soloed after you're immortal. Rare immunity rings (both the 35/35 and 75/50) drop pretty often in these areas. Last time I did Xulrae, two 35/35 immunity rings dropped just getting the keys.

Keep an eye out for other immunity items. Frost Anchor has 25% cold, Demondim has 25% to fire and acid, and Valiant's Honor has 25% to cold and electricity. Don't ignore Boots of Absorption +10 (10% to all elements and an uncommon drop) or Xanthene Raiment (10% to all elements).

Enervix isn't a great ring, but it's a set drop and I see it semi-often in the priced chest. For 25% fire and electrical, it's quite useful. I've seen the 35% rings in the priced chest for 10 million or so quite regularly as well since they went in.

From 40-50, the maze is quite possible solo or in small parties (depending on your class). There are quite a few loot spots scattered around. I found my first UR there, as well as several immunity rings.

Once you hit 45th level or so, you should have 1-2 rare immunity rings plus 15/- (or preferably 20/-, with a set of Lolth's Slippers if nothing else). At this point, you can start doing Ssithrak runs. Even if you don't succeed the first few times you try, you'll be gaining experience and practice for later runs. Bank the tagged loot for later, even if you can't use it yet - keep an eye out for items with immunities (robes, scale, bracers, and the Mokoni shield).

In my opinion, most advancement comes down to time invested. Moving from 1 -> 2 is simply learning the basics. 2 -> 3 involves gathering equipment and possibly building more characters to learn from your mistakes. 3 -> 3.5 is somewhat of the 'grind' part, where you need to do runs to earn UR or better gear.

Ideally, when doing 3 -> 3.5, you should be practicing with your character. Learn everything about them, such as what tactics work on what enemies. Learn to read the examine screen for enemies quickly, and watch your combat log. Know what buffs you need, and what you can provide for yourself and what you need to depend on others for. Most importantly, know your role in a party. The jump from 3.5 -> 4 isn't based on the loot you have, but on your skills as a player. If you're the strength tank and the pit fiend is headed straight for the cleric, get in the way. If you're a shifter doing Dustbone, don't spike the abimanders.

When I was learning HG, I split my time between soloing and party play. Soloing lets you learn your character thoroughly, and any loot you find is yours to keep. Soloing the above 35-45 areas (Drow slums and houses, water shrikes, crypt, deepbats) will let you keep all the loot you find. Commons and uncommons found in these areas can be sold for decent money, and you should easily find a rare or two for every circuit.

Most importantly, cultivate friends. When you party with them, they know what you can do and you know what they can do. Playing is more fun when you can depend on the sorcerer to PWK the snakes while you take out the archers, without having to scream over party chat 'don't hit the snakes!'.

Acaos

[supertrooper33]

Easiest way to move from 3 to 4, which I am currently on my way of doing.
1) Wake up fairly early Sunday morning*
2) Make a nice big pot of coffee
3) Be very quiet, join a run
4) Let wife sleep in until said run is complete
5) Repeat every Sunday*

*alternately, this can be any night when you can sleep in the next morning and the wife has went to bed

[Lythe Featherblade]

For the record (since I was the one that suggested the xp loss) I don't have battlerager (wish I did), I've been hunting immunity rings for a while, and I propably have 8+ 75/50 rings(1 double), 2 90% rings, and 2 25% exotic rings, demondim, valiant's honor, the sithrak 10% to 5 elements gloves, xanthene rainement (which is more like 5% and 20/-), 25/- to 5 elemental boots and 30/- to 5 elemental robes. Even with these resources it can still be hard finding the right combination of gear to cover a good amount of resists/immunities (especially without dropping physical too much), and a ring exchange with a penalty would still benefit those who are willing to work for it.

The reason I started collecting? Not getting onto runs because I was missing resists.

Time to get to work, I'll add some more later today

[khaine]

Although I am in total agreement with thedomicron and acaos, it undermines alot of levelling, but I still feel that we need some sort of structure to aid the transition of groups. Another thought I had was that only characters of a certain level can use it, but then it would still be so easy to manipulate, so I thought that maybe something that restricts the level useable, but still abusable. My next thought was a special ring that can be changed, but then it would either be a random drop to valubale for the ones who need it to get, or a static drop which is too easy to get, even on a dangerous run.
Personally I think the best idea is to get a group of peoplewho you can party with alot, small groups work well. As I have said often, I went on many, many 34-40 level runs and just got my gear up to a high (reletive) standard, and this got me by well enough to get good items in other areas (well, another oft-told anecdote, when I used the leveller for the *very* first time, I went to level 45... xD), xD. A large part of my levelling and looting experiance has been a small group, who shall remain nameless (you know yourselves, xD).


xD.

[dodrudon]

In addition to what Acaos said, I'd like to add the Journal is your friend. It's saved in the localvault server as a txt file (Notepad) which you can access offline and is persistent on your computer. Any changes you make to it, either in-game or with Notepad, will be reflected in each other. Great for taking notes.

I got my first UR in the maze too , a Beldoin's Spellturner, before it had the 10% magic immunity. Ironic, because I always use it when I go back there....

[thedomicron]

my advice? lie. if you're talking with a party that won't let you on sithrak run because you don't have 100 % immunities to whichever elements/exotics, they're not worth partying with, and you can get by with far less. knowledge of the enemies down there should easily prepare you for that run with what you listed. when you finish your run, tell your 'friends' that you weren't wearing what they told you you 'needed' and tell them to stop being so exclusive.

[dodrudon]

I consider having immunities a benefit to your party rather than yourself. It saves them the trouble of having to drag you, and also you actually contribute to the party's success. Otherwise, I agree with you that immunities are definitely not required, and such a party should definitely not be your party.

[Lythe Featherblade]

Maybe you can get by with less immunities when you have 1k+hp as a tank, but there are far too many times where having the wrong ring gets you killed really fast even if you still have 25% + 25/- for the element, and I see far too many party members in the 400-500 hp range. Maybe it's one thing when a strong party drags 1 or 2 characters for a tag with a rez every 30 seconds, but when the whole party is struggling as it is someone who isn't in for the tag and still has to be dragged (or several someones at that) and then rolls to grab the top loot at the end makes you wonder sometimes. Sure they propably need the loot, but if the whole party is struggling, then odds are so do you.

You don't need 100%, but you do need to make a decent effort. And even if lots of immos start in the desert, if after their first 1-3 runs they realize that build isn't everything, that you need the proper gear to back it up, and that you need that gear before you start going anywhere, then I see that as a good thing. I really love that indoor part in the desert where you need good cold and negative immunities.. and instead of saying "wait to port if you don't have it" the more experienced players should be saying "come in and see what happens in higher runs if you don't work on your immunities".

Even the maze is a good teacher, and my first time there my level 40 dexer tanked, an AA did all the damage, and the other 7 or 8 people spent the entire run dirtnapping (we did join them a few times). I went back 2 levels (and minor gear upgrades) later, solo, and during 6 hours of wandering found my first UR (orudin's eye, still my shield of choice when I don't need certain immunities).

Everyone starting needs a hand up, but they also need to put in the effort themselves. My first 2 and my last 75/50 ring were generous donations, but that didn't stop me from doing runs just to get more rings, and buying every item I could find with % immunities. And more than once, when I wasn't quite sure what to take, I asked the party on advice - and usually got a good, honest answer on what the best choice for me would be.

Oh, and back to your post Dom, about trading that UR book.... that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. looking at it from the other side, once you trade it away, it'll be a long time before you'll get it back (unless you're stupidly lucky), and the stuff you get for it may be helpful in the short term, but if you have the race, at least you can work on a long term build, instead of a build that you know you'll only keep until you get the race book again. As someone without a UR race, I'm almost at the point of offering my hawklights to get one, and considering their demand, I know that it may be a while before stupid luck kicks in again and I can aquire another set (I've only ever seen one drop), but at least I'd not be playing a disposable character anymore. It's one thing to learn from your build mistakes, it's another not being able to take full advantage of the knowledge gained due to the races you have available.

[thedomicron]

you don't need a ur subrace in order to make a good build. ESPECIALLY a tank, however hte item was an example. what if you traded your battlerager book for a ur immunity ring? how is that helpful in only the short run? i traded several URs for my planewalker book, and i have no regrets. but how many times did i use it? once. i have one planewalker toon and it cost me a UR ring and UR amulet, BOTH of which are highly reusable on other toons.

meanwhile, what do most ur subraces give you? an extra feat, maybe two, and MAYBE one extra dc. the subrace is WAY less important than the build. one of the first demigods on the mod is a kurai RDD. if a secret subrace can make it in the hells, then believe me an unrestricted or plain secret subrace will be JUST fine, and you can focus on getting reusable gear. because guess what? if you build a character that you really like, and keep an eye out for the gear you need, when you DO find that ur subby, you'll be able to just rebuild and use the gear you already own. if you don't want to make a new character, you can just reuse your good stuff and just trade the older stuff, guess what, when your ur subby-based char gets a little boring, hits 60 etc, you can't just trade the tag.

bottom line: it sounds like you're doing things the right way. there are always people richer, people who have it easier, etc. just always keep in mind the difference b/w what you need to succeed, and what you WANT to succeed. i'm not saying you should up and trade your races, but just keep in mind, you next UR race isn't going to magically be immune to all the environments it faces, so if you don't have the equipment for it, ask yourself if its really worth it.

the LL areas are easily surmountable with secret or unrestricted subraces.