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Post by dodrudon on May 21, 2007 18:53:52 GMT
Is there any viable way to make a non-monk shifter?
You'd lose Evasion, Tumble, Discipline, and Wis AC (can't lose to flatfooted, stacks with everything, around 25 points)
You'd gain Shield AC when shifted.
Seriously, there's no alternative to building a shifter, you HAVE to take druid, and you HAVE to take monk.
Even if you get shield AC, it's never going to approach the 25 points from Wisdom.
Not only that, because you don't get Shield AC, you can use flags without an AC penalty.
Also, splashing a single monk level is extremely beneficial, as it's the least amount you can splash while having maximum effectiveness with shifter abilities. Even if another class were made available to splash, you'd only want to splash a single level of it.
Are there any changes possible to make non-monk Shifters viable? Like, give Wis AC to all shifters, or somehow increase the AC of shifted forms... Or should shifters be left as-is, because they're pretty flexible already.
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Post by thedomicron on May 21, 2007 20:09:17 GMT
you still gain shield ac, because its merged with the form, and you're technically not wearing a shield.
and without a monk level you don't get your huge wisdom to ac.
so i mean you might be able to get rogue levels for locks and such, but would it be worth it?
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Post by sabregirl on May 21, 2007 20:28:36 GMT
Non-monk shifters already get to stack their shield bonus for AC. And I believe giving non monks wis ac was tried but can't be done due to engine limitations. Problem is shield ac can never compete with wis AC. I tried a rogue shifter up to about lvl 35 I found it noticably more painful than my monk shifters. As things currently stand it's really not doable and honestly there isn't much to be gained from classes other than monk anyway. Rogue levels for locks really don't help since you can't use items while shifted you can't use picks while in kobold form, nor traps using the settrap bonus in kobold form. -S
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Post by lala on May 21, 2007 20:29:14 GMT
The same argument could be said about Bard/AA.
I know one who has managed to take their archer down to middle-ish layers of hell and it does not have monk.
If you dont have monk then being agile and moving away from hot spots is the key, in other words dont even go toe-to-toe with one spawn in the same way casters dont.
Lala
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Post by dodrudon on May 21, 2007 21:07:08 GMT
Shifters and AAs are like apples and oranges, you can't really compare them. AAs get way more levels to splash in and are very flexible (as noted by the fact that there are builds with only 1 or 3 levels of AA just to use Dusty bows). Shifters, on the other hand, have all their abilities tied in to the number of levels they have in Shifter and Druid levels. You don't "splash shifter," you ARE a shifter, or you aren't. Druid dragon tanks with shifter levels don't really apply, they specialize as a dragon, while shifters are variable and need to be good at all their forms.
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Post by lala on May 21, 2007 21:31:18 GMT
Shifters and AAs are like apples and oranges, you can't really compare them. AAs get way more levels to splash in and are very flexible (as noted by the fact that there are builds with only 1 or 3 levels of AA just to use Dusty bows). Shifters, on the other hand, have all their abilities tied in to the number of levels they have in Shifter and Druid levels. You don't "splash shifter," you ARE a shifter, or you aren't. Druid dragon tanks with shifter levels don't really apply, they specialize as a dragon, while shifters are variable and need to be good at all their forms. Looks like you are arguing with all my posts ;D The comparison was made because a real shifter does not melee but uses their abilities like a mage. In other words they are not front line. If you want to melee then take monk. But I must say a high lvl shifter is pretty awful at melee, I have a dragon char that uses druid for that reason as it enables me flexibility in also taking a full bab class (in my case Paladin). Archer is in the same argument because they also have to rely on monk for wis ac due to having a bow. Therefore the case is do you take monk to have survivable AC or do you say take greater amounts of rogue for doing locks, etc, again they are a ranged attack just like 99% of the shifter abilities. My point is valid and still stands.
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Post by lala on May 21, 2007 22:14:01 GMT
Just want to say as well if you are going high shifter levels then why would you take any class other than monk?
You will not have enough levels in any other class to really help as you must take 5 druid and around 28-30 shifter.
So your left with just splash options, and only monk really adds any value splashed in this context.
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Post by dodrudon on May 21, 2007 23:10:22 GMT
Yeah, that was part of my dilemma, it'd be nice to have a choice of splash other than monk, but I don't see what other class would help for splashing. You started it!!
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Post by FunkySwerve on May 27, 2007 0:53:55 GMT
We tried to create an option for shifters by granting the monk ac feat for free awhile back, but it doesn't work without monk levels, thanks to the engine. Funky
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Post by helbrax on May 29, 2007 19:03:48 GMT
Is there no way to create a custom feat instead? Or a custom spell that fires when you shift, or modifiying the AC of shifted forms?
I'd like to do a shifter build, but since there is no real variation on the third class, it seems a little bland.
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Post by FunkySwerve on May 29, 2007 20:12:15 GMT
Custom feats require haks. We don't do haks other than CEP. Funky
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Post by lala on May 29, 2007 23:14:56 GMT
But to be honest what other class apart from monk would you take, considering you would want at least 28 shifter levels?
With 28 shifter and 5 druid that leaves 7 for a different class.
Even if you did have the AC given without monk I still cannot think what class you would take.
The only time I see AC being a real issue is when you go minimal amount of shifter to do a different type of build.
As an example ages ago I built a druid/shifter/25paladin build going with Risen Lord and massive charisma. Was my initial fun attempt at Lord Soth (and was even more fun with Sssith mass heal spells being spammed on bridge hehe).
Yes it would had been nice to have extra AC provided as I did not have monk, but then this build is not really a shifter.
I guess the question is; are we trying to provide extra ac for shifters, or other builds that take minimum shifter levels? Personally if someone says they are playing a shifter they will have 28+ levels of that class, this then really limits splash to monk anyway and so dont lose out on build options.
Lala
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Post by dodrudon on May 30, 2007 1:10:30 GMT
How the heck did this thread get duplicated?! Even the viewcount and replies are....
Anyways, it's just to provide more flexibility, maybe 2 rogue or SD for skill dump and immunity to flatfoot.
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Post by Trazik on May 30, 2007 10:27:39 GMT
On "my old server" monk-shifters got nerfed because they were getting (absurdly) high wisdom AC while shifted and wearing armour (light/medium/heavy) and/or using a shield. This was a decision taken by the admin for balance (on that server) reasons.
Why did I just write all that? Well, the result of that change was that people started getting creatve with their shifter builds. Dr5-Sh10-BG25 and Bb24-Dr6-Sh10 Risen Lords became popular for a while, until they got nerfed. So you can see why I left (nerf-nerf-nerf).
My point is that there are some shifter forms which get some nice immunities. With the changes to medium and light armour, I have to think that non-monk shifters should be viable.
People just need to think outside the box.
Trazik
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Post by thedomicron on May 30, 2007 14:25:04 GMT
while i appreciate thinking outside the box, i think you need to take into account the need for high ac in higher ground, unfortunately the monk is almost required for a strong shifter build
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