Caster Bard

[iamaqt]

Hi all.
I am trying to build a caster bard - for the primary reason to sing, curse, and ID items. I have a few questions, and also want your suggestions.

-Bards do not get epic spells, correct? - so should I not take any feats in spell focus?
-playing a caster bard- what other spells are helpful? It doesn't seem to me that there are many other helpful spells. (But, maybe it's because I'm so low lvl, that I'm not seeing the effects yet.)
-I have read that there are items that caster bards can use. Are they the charged items that I find? If so, it's really annoying to have to keep getting that one item just for 1 use of wail.......

Please share your thoughts - I have looked through the build thread and there isn't a build for a caster bard that I can follow. I really think that a caster bard will be an asset to a large group doing LL runs - do you all agree, disagree?

-qt

[phalthallus]

I'm trying to help my wife out with this, and know what other questions to ask (she's still very new to NWN in general). She is intrigued by the note that says items were added to HG to make caster bards a viable option. So here are some other ?'s I thought of:

Do feats in the spell foci affect the effects of casting spells either from items or scrolls?

Does charisma affect spells cast from either items or scrolls?

Can you get UMD high enough to use wiz/sorc items that have charges of spells on them (like Dachy staves)?

That's all I can think of for now. Any general tips in how to make a caster bard semi-viable would be much appreciated. Essentially what I'm guessing is that instead of doing a dexer-bard, you're going to be doing a charisma-bard. We're just looking for feedback on how to take advantage of the items added to HG for caster bards. We've seen the item that has 1 charge of Wail on it, and I think I've seen one with 5 charges of IGMS, but these aren't even per day, so you'd have to fill your entire inventory with these items. I'm guessing there are higher-level items that we just haven't seen that have more castings and/or they are charges per day rather than a flat # of charges.

[khaine]

"Does charisma affect spells cast from either items or scrolls?" fraid not, xD

"Can you get UMD high enough to use wiz/sorc items that have charges of spells on them (like Dachy staves)?"

I dont think so.... I remember hearing sdomething like that when I thought about flurry of arrows w/bard. I am not sure but you can probably use most other things, xD.

xD

Also dont use item wails, the dc wiol be low (unless your using it at level 10 , xD), xD.

xD

[atomicsomething]

my bard uses often dachy staves for The Epic Warding spell on them (and lvl 30 rare one, and lvl 35 ones ....). i have troubles with UR items but may be i didnt push my umd far enough.

if you go on charisma bard, taunt is also a good choice to spend skill points on.

[FunkySwerve]

The items for caster bard include the Pipes of Geshytk (sp?). They use the PC 's Cha bonus in calculating dc, as if the player were casting rather than using an item. More are needed imo.
Funky

[phalthallus]

funkyswerve said:

The items for caster bard include the Pipes of Geshytk (sp?). They use the PC 's Cha bonus in calculating dc, as if the player were casting rather than using an item. More are needed imo.
Funky

Meaning more items like this are needed to make this a viable build idea?

[Yomi]

My bard (not a caster bard!) got the pipes and never uses them. Unlike the store pipes, you have to wield them. For a standard cheese bard swapping out main weapon for the pipes then back in is frustrating, plus being flatfooted. Also, unlike mage horrid spells, this one is centered on you all the time even though it makes you click a target. Maybe nice if you're surrounded but again, not when I want to be fiddling with swapping that thing in and out. Given the 16ish base cha boosted to 28 or so with equipment, the damage is less than impressive even at level 60 -- less than a single hit with my rapier, and my rapier is good for a lot more than 5 uses per day. Perhaps the item has been enhanced since I got it.

A true bard can keep pumping UMD in LL's, just like a rogue, and can use Dachy staves and many other items. The problem with splashing bard into the AA build is that AA's can't select UMD in LL's so it maxes at 43+modifier, nor can you normally assume you have high level bardsong on all the time for +10-20 to all skills.

[resonance378]

based on that... I see a bard walking around a bar room while playing in the middle of a bar brawl

he doesn't get touched and kicks in a few heads along the way...

maybe that's what the pipes are for?

Besides, everyone knows bards can't die unless they are named Brave Sir Robin's Yellow Bellied Merry Men!

[iamaqt]

Thank you to all the comments thus far.
I am figuring out noone has really tried/liked a caster bard? I suppose in a large group, standing around cursing/singing will be handy, but I may get odd looks from those who suspect that I am leeching? Maybe I should follow more of Funky's pixie bard so I can contribute more to the fight? I was hoping there was enough need for the other bard spells (like war cry, or dirge, or mind fog), and that there were enough usable items out there that would make a caster bard worthwhile.

Keep the comments coming! I appreciate it.
-qt

[Bakchuda]

When you are the only bard in a party, and you are cursing to drop saves/AB on the mobs, the last thing people will accuse you of is leeching. It can really turn the tide for the party.

[Yomi]

Warning: long winded rambling post. But what'd you expect -- bards love to hear themselves type.

In my opinion, a "real" bard (meaning one whose control class is bard, not an RDD with 3 bard levels that keeps singing) adds a lot of value to the party just with song and curse. That song will likely max out your dodge bonus, raise saves 4-7 points if not already at the +20 cap, add +4 to +6 more attack that stacks with any GMW, prayer, etc., raises all your skills 10+ points (discipline!), and even throws in a little extra weapon damage and hp. That's a lot of bonuses, and they're not dispellable. When your bard curses, the mobs get all of that applied in reverse. Oh my. I don't know how the dodge, attack, and skill curse actually effects all monsters, but it's not negligible by any means. The save hit they take is inarguably very effective if you have casters or shifters.

The nice thing about the melee bards (e.g. Yue's cheese bard or Funky's Whistling Pixie WM bard) is that you get all of this and you're a quite competent melee fighter as well. Do you do the best damage output? No, but it's pretty respectable. Do you have the best defense? No, but it's pretty good. What does one more tank add to a party of 7? Not a huge amount more typically. A bard adds a lot in addition to being that one more tank.

A typical melee bard will sing, curse, and ID almost as well as a caster bard. A pure bard would have somewhat better song/curse.

As a bard you should be able to read arcane scrolls. UMD is not needed -- you can get a wizard to make you as many stacks of whatever spells you want (barring a few like timestop). But they'll be at the scroll level and SP, not yours, so things like wail scrolls will indeed knock down rooms full of ice kobolds but LL critters will generally laugh at you. Some things, like gust, mord, timestop, black blade, GS, etc. are quite useful from scrolls however.

Caster bards... Dirge is ok but you'll need to max out spell penetration and focus to get them to fail the save. Curse cuts through all defenses. You get ice storm but it isn't any better than a mage one and you don't get nearly as many (no Dachy bard gear, though maxing CHA could give you some more). Ice storm isn't exactly top of the list damage output vs. say Meteors.

Healing Circle is pretty nice in places like maze, but realistically a cleric or druid will be better at it. But it's there. Since you don't get level 7+ spell slots, I believe you cannot empower or maximize it.

War cry (for fear), Hold Monster, Dominate Person, Confusion... Possibly. Some of these are more holding actions -- having the nice clump of enemies now start running all over the map trying to get away from the party instead of dying is typically not the desired result.

It seems to me that your spell selection in terms of being a caster is very limited compared to a sorc or wiz. You don't have access to any of the nice high level spells like Wail, Meteor, Horrids, Thunderclap, FoD, Firebrand, etc. You can't maximize any spells higher than 3rd level or empower anything beyond 4th. Your spell slot gear is more limited (helm, robes, trumpet of goofiness). With the spells you do get I don't see how the bard would be any better than a sorc (that's alright, but you lose out on the higher level stuff and their gear).

Without concentrating on dex, your AC will be on par with a sorc (your tumble bonus cancels their mask of mystra). But they get Premonition and slightly better EV. Unfortunately your roll as cursing the enemies typically involves running near the pack and standing around flailing your arms in the air while they beat on you.

Other casters get epic spells. Bards do not. You can read a book to get the epic focus (enchant is the obvious one, transmutation might be another choice to keen non-slashing weapons but you only need greater focus for that). But you don't get anything other than the focus -- compared to a sorc who'd get a handy Balor in addition.

Now if you want to do this for fun, I don't see anything wrong. Even if you do nothing but song and curse you're not a non-contributer. In my opinion a melee bard or a sorc/wiz are more optimal builds. But we don't all have to play cookie cutter cheese builds. Besides, maybe we'll see some caster bard gear show up that you'll get to wave in our faces and make us all want to start our own qtbards.

[DragonChyld]

Bards ROCK!!! nuff said

[FunkySwerve]

phalthallus said:

funkyswerve said:

The items for caster bard include the Pipes of Geshytk (sp?). They use the PC 's Cha bonus in calculating dc, as if the player were casting rather than using an item. More are needed imo.
Funky

Meaning more items like this are needed to make this a viable build idea?

Yup, imo. Pipes of Geshtak are probablly really nice for a true caste bard, but I have never seen one use em. Would be the same as a high level sorc or wiz casting, but take twice the time. I think 2-3 items of that soer are needed at minimum to make caster bards versatile enough to be useful. As it is at present, a dexer bard's song can be just as good, and dexer bards can tank, and tank well.

Funky

[iamaqt]

sti15 said:

Besides, maybe we'll see some caster bard gear show up that you'll get to wave in our faces and make us all want to start our own qtbards.

Hehe! qtbard! Darn, I just rolled my bard out (again), now i'm going to have to reroll her again to rename her

But seriously, thank you so much yomi (and funky and others) for your insight. That is the most information I have received in one sitting! I hear bits and pieces, but you put it in a nice concise, easy to understand form. Thank you.

I will continue on my quest to build a caster bard. I have renewed optimism.

-qt(bard)

ps. Funky - if you roll out new caster bard items - can you name one 'qtbard'? teehee

[iamaqt]

Ok, I've started my caster bard over and am so far at lvl 12. I have thought of a few questions:

1) How much Cha do I really need? I was thinking of putting some points into dex so I can wield a bow or xbow to contribute to the fight. - But when I'm higher lvl, this will become pointless, right? I am not going to be a fighter, so should I put any points in there or not?

2) What feats (besides the obvious) would be beneficial? I have already taken combat casting, greater spell pen, toughness, and Luck of heroes. Yomi mentioned that enchant is an obvious spell feat to take - could someone elaberate on this?
For skill points, I am putting points into: Concentration, Lore, Perform, tumble, and UMD - any others that would be beneficial?

3) Now, a question regarding gameplay - Should I sing before casters begin buffing? Does this help their buffs? Will this increase the GMW/KEEN/FW buffs? And if so, if the mages perm their buffs, does the extra plus 'perm' with it?

Thanks!
-qt