Common Build Themes and Their Questionability

[dodrudon]

I often see builds for mages maxing tumble to 40 for an extra 8 AC (I'll admit I've done this too). However, If you're lucky, you'll hit 100 AC with the best equipement. That's if you're lucky. You might as well have 20 AC, so what's the point of wasting points in tumble? I understand as wizard you have more than enough skill points to dump, but isn't just 15 sufficient? I know I wouldn't mind having 25 more skill points.

Also, I often see builds tossing in four levels of a 1BAB/1Lvl class to get an extra attack in. I admit it's definitely nice to have an extra attack, but what are the possible sacrifices? Four more levels can get you a lot. The last attack is at such a low AB anyways, it'll probably only hit if you roll a 20.

Comments? Maybe I'm trying to make up for the fact that my two latest builds only got 15 BAB pre-epic

[chainlink]

For a mage the +8 vs +6 final ac is probably not justifiable on its own but when added to evasion which can get you out of some sticky situations it may be worth splashing. For Str tanks every point of ac counts as it slightly reduces the constant chipping away at your hps, if you don't think it does matter than why bother taking armor skin either?
If I am building a toon that intends hitting things I will attempt to fit in four attacks a round as whilst you are doing this it also pushes your ab up anyway giving you a better chance that more of your attacks will connect. With monk builds and their improved attack progression it is even more helpful to have more attacks, unless you just intend standing around like a lemon waving your fists/weapons ineffectually in the air.

[dodrudon]

How does tumble affect evasion?

Yeah, for non-mages I'd definitely max tumble when possible.

For a monk, though you only get -3ab to subsequent attacks, at around 8 attacks per round, or even 10 with kamas, you fall 24-30ab, or with 5 attacks for others ab falls by 25. From a base ab in the 60s, that drops to the mid 30s, which I think is barely enough for rhazids?

However, I guess you could look at getting extra attacks as a side effect of boost your ab, which is never a bad thing. I just think taking 4 pre-epic levels in a warrior class should not be done for the sole reason of getting an extra attack, as in most cases it only gives one extra point of ab anyways.

[Yomi]

I think we all agree that if you don't have super-EV, that extra 2AC will be noticible (**). So we're talking about wizard, sorc, and bard. A very common sorc build is 38 sorc 1 pal 1 monk, so you're already getting that monk level -- why not max out tumble and discipline for cheap? Wizards get absurd amounts of skill points, so I don't see any reason why not to blow 60 of them getting tumble to 30 cross class. Getting a level of monk just for that on a wizard I'll agree -- it's not worth it. But if you want evasion or maybe a rogue level just to get some options for spending those hundreds upon hundreds of skill points it's a more valid argument. Bards don't get premonition so you feel each hit a lot more (in my experience), and every bit of AC does help.

Some monsters get as many as 10 attacks per round (e.g. Dustbone). Their last attacks are likely at a pretty low ab. 95 vs. 93 ac probably does make some difference. I've noticed that until my AC gets to some reasonable value I get walloped hard even with EV -- probably those last attacks. Once AC gets to some decent value for the area the number of hits taken goes down immensely.

** Assuming we're talking about areas offering a challenge of course. The difference between 140 and 130 AC on east road would be unnoticible. When Tiamat and her consorts are trying to hit you then there's a big difference between those two numbers given the 120ish ab of those bosses.


Regarding the 4 levels, those are usually things like battle cleric etc. Maxing attacks and ab is helpful given that in typical builds of that type your offensive casting ability frankly sucks compared to a real caster -- but your buffs are nearly as good. Those 4 pal/fighter levels get you 1 or 2 more ab on every attack as well as the extra attack. Would your conceal go up by dropping those 4 levels? No -- would need multiples of 5 caster levels for that. Would you get any extra attacks? No, divine power / tensers give extra attacks at CL 45 and 55 which works out nice with a 4 pal 1 monk combo. Would your spells last a lot longer? Only 7% longer. Would your premonition / stoneskin be better? Not really -- you'll still get the same +14 version if you stick with multiples of 5 caster levels.

The following post shows some combat log tests with my dual wielding bard: bard ab. Note that the 8 attacks are not each decreasing by 5 from the maximum as you're implying for kamas. The haste attack is at full ab. The offhand attacks start at full ab and go down in their own progression. Also, every single one of those attacks has a chance of a natural 20 which is pretty nice when fighting something with huge ac and/or conceal. But yes that 4th attack (that's a 35 bard 4 pal 1 monk build) is at -15 so isn't going to be hitting stuff nearly as often.

All that said, there are some reasons for not doing 4 pal/fighter levels. The latest fad seems to be 2 pal 3 monk instead of 4 pal 1 monk. You lose the one attack (at -15) and one ab. You gain a very slight speed increase and the possibility for a really big speed increase with FoM or ExpRet. You also avoid an xp penalty with many builds. I went this route with my new bard, mainly for the speed which just makes her more enjoyable to play even though I realize I'm sacrificing a bit of offense. But that isn't at all the same as dropping the 4 levels entirely to get 4 more caster levels or some other class.

[resonance378]

General Effective Building guidelines?