Newbie Question on STR Builds

[_Tachyon_]

OK, I've figured out from reading this BB that STR builds have ZERO chance at higher levels and only EXTREMELY optimized builds have any chance of making L60. Great, I tried a CANNED dexer build and found L3-6 extremely frustrating. Plus I am poor. So I am back to my STR build to do my early exploring.

Question: At what level or in what areas can I expect to be totally overwhelmed with a basic Troll Fighter STR/CON build? I am pushing 200 HP at L11 and doing very well in level appropriate areas.

[Yomi]

I wouldn't go that far. There are a number of quite playable STR builds posted. RDD, DD, Baneknight, etc. If you want survivability I found something similar to The Tin Can to be very nice and it doesn't require unlockable races. You're fire immune and have good innate natural armor and physical damage reduction. The gear requirements on it are a bit less than some other STR builds. It's well suited to tank pretty much everywhere (that includes Beholders, Pyramid, and Hells). You're not going to get any oohs and ahhs over damage output but it's quite reasonable. If you want bigger damage output, one of the RDD WM builds would be better. Their defense is a little lower than the DD but their damage output on most things is a lot higher (and once you get a good scythe you will get lots of oohs and aahs when you crit).

You can do well with some Barbarian, WM, or Paladin STR builds also. I've seen successful level 60 versions of each. I think they're a bit more gear dependent than the DD or RDD builds and some experience helps. I can think of an example of each that I'd gladly have join as a tank in any group.

Yes, dexer's usually do terrible damage in the very low levels. It gets better. A Halfling Death can do pretty substantial damage output later. Agreed, the mino str tank will make you green with envy when you're sub-10, and it's too early to see the AC advantage.

Farm/Temple at 20 or so is often when people first start realizing that AC is important and maybe a shield might be a good idea. Even then you can get away with it. Usually Mantakloss at 32+ is the big wakeup call where the typical gnoll greatsword user gets their behind handed to them inside of a round. I saw a troll str tank in Ssith once so they're out there. Unfortunately he was in Fugue very quickly.

P.S. This server rewards extremely optimized builds of any type.

[Yiazmat]

Well-made STR builds are awesome. Heck, as Yomi's said, just about any optimized build will do well. Jenna's Dwarf of Steel build has been going incredibly well for me of late, at level 56.

What I think you should be wary of, though, is the Troll subrace. The 75% decreased immunity to both fire and acid will obliterate you in LL areas, such as Dustbone and the Pyramid. These qualities can be kinda-maybe overcome if you have access to sufficient Ultrarare gear, but as this is (I'm inferring) your first toon, chances are you won't have any. You can have all the HP you want, but it doesn't mean anything when you're taking 100-200 fire damage for EVERY BLOW THAT EVERY PARTY MEMBER LANDS ON EVERY ABIMANDER. You'll be dead within a second, before you can even hit the hotkey for heal potion. It's truly best to scrap a troll character before you have to deal with the frustration at high levels.

Search around the board a little more, there are plenty of good str builds that use non-secret subraces. (Go, Dwarf of Steel! )

[Dannecrot]

tachyon said:

...I tried a CANNED dexer build and found L3-6 extremely frustrating...

It's like this, the higher level runs are so difficult that only a very optimized build will do well there, but that doesn't mean that that's what you should aim for.
Many of the people that have been on the server for a while work so hard on making builds to survive these high level runs that they forget that a new player on higherground won't get through to immo in a few days...
Yes, many of the builds which do well at higher levels are maybe a little weak at lower levels, which is why I advise for your first char making whatever you'll enjoy. Go Troll Fighter and never look back. When you reach immo and you find that he's a little lacking make a new char and I think the lower level troubles will seem less important to you. If playing all the way to 40 and then having to make a new character bothers you then you'll simply have to make the decision of which is the better of two evils.

[tyranlthixis]

Actually strength fighters are some of the most powerful builds in the Pyramid and the Hells, the most difficult areas in the mod. From hells level 4 onwards a group is well advised to take at least 2 (if not 3) strength tanks to have good success. The problem is one of equipment. That is good equipment is needed to make the builds work but takes a while to accumulate. You're going to need +18 platemail, and some decent damage reduction gear. With the current hells equipment and burs an ordinary strength tank can get his/her ac up to 123 base and 127 with the epic cleric buff. You're not going to have access to this gear right away. Give it a while and you should be able to get your ac up to 118 with ultra rares and thid gear. This will allow you to transition to the hells nicely and get even more powerful.

Nonetheless, troll strength tank is not advisable. You can cover your fire weakness with 10 RDD levels but the acid weakness is going to haunt you (hells level 4 for example is full of acid damage). Build some gear up, get some good races, and then carefully plan a build/or use a high saves strength build off the forums. With the new legendary save feats there are a great many strength builds that are viable now.

If you want a build that can survive in areas up until the hells without good gear, I suggest you build a halfling death. That will open up a lot of doors for you.

Tyran

[zerragon]

I have a DD str tank (Tin can), and its doing extremely well in Pyramid and Hells (so far).
I used battlerager, but you can also get an excellent result from Artic dwarf (Check claus "'Tin can' build)

Advantages:
- 100% fire from rdd, 100% elec from thid shield
- 75%+ 30/- resist sonic/cold/acid and 50% to an exotic covered by UR rings and cloak/boots.
- 126 ac (without cleric buff and burrs)
- tons of HP
- 80%+ physical immunity
- good saves makes failing fort/will saves on a roll of 1 his only real threat.

[chainlink]

I play RDD Str tanks in both the Pyramid and Hells and they can be very effective if built well. If you want one with decent saves vs slightly reduced damage output I'd look at a Bard/Pal/RDD version. I like my Bard/WM/RDD but this does come at the cost of below par saves in the high 50's.

[FunkySwerve]

Hell levels 4+ pretty much require a couple str tanks to be in the party.
Funky

[phalthallus]

After seeing this, and some of the changes made to the SD class (again), I was re-considering some of the strength-based SD builds Dodrudon has put out on the forums.

Shadowed Slayer
Shadow Tank

The trouble with this sort of build of course is weighing WM levels (I think the special Whirlwind attack for SD's sounds pretty nice - roughly 90-100 damage as often as you want to all surrounding enemies, based on their saves and immunities) versus everything else. One thought was to drop WM and replace with HS, use Prismatic HD for the subby, and have 50% elemental immunity (0% sonic). 50% elemental resist, plus 50%+ conceal, plus improved evasion, plus heavy armor/shield....sounds pretty amazing. Your damage will be somewhat low though, losing the WM class. Still, sounds quite survivable.

But the whirl would be nice, and you're already taking Dodge and Mobility (unless they come free with a subrace) anyway. Expertise will improve AC even more, so when you consider that, and the damage whirlwind can do...it only makes sense to get spring attack and whirl, assuming you can afford it.

So I guess what I'm wondering is, would the 25% elemental immunity from HS boots (not even going to count the 2 attacks because they don't last that long), and better saves if taken pre-epic, be worth more or less than higher damage output you'd get from the WM levels and whirlwind? Thoughts?

[stonewarrior]

I too would advise against the troll. If you want a nice Str based subrace for a first toon may I suggest the Gnoll. You get similar ability point changes but do not have the fire / acid vulnerability. You don't get the regen, but after the first few levels it won't matter to much. My first toon was a Gnoll (48 Barbarian / 2 Bard / 10 RDD) and he did exceptionally well. After he got his thids tag he was pretty much immune to all of the elements with the right gear (no UR's needed for this) and as he got better (re: UR gear) he got even better. He has done all of the non hell runs and doesn't die much at all.

My other immo is a Tiefling Halfling Death. Yeah, it is a Dex build but do not let it fool you...he is one tough little halfilng. You can use the Derrzagon subrace to make the HD and still do quite well. He survives very well everywhere he has been (including Tiamat) and is usually tanking the entire time. Just last night he spent most of his time pullingand tanking in the pyramid and but for the damn heartseeker scarabs would have made it through without dying.

Jenna's Dwarf of Steel was mentioned above and for a Str based build it is looks to be an excellent option for a first build. I am currently leveling a variation (though with the Battlerager subby) and have been very pleased thus far (though only level 13). One of the RDD builds (particularly the one using the White Half-Dragon) also looks to be a very nice build involving a "free" subrace.

In the end though, like many others have suggested, what is key is your finding a subrace / build that suits your playing style. Explore the server and take the time to decide what you like. My first character took a coupe of months to hit level 40 because I spent a lot of time exploring and just wandering around getting to know "Higher Ground".

Peace, John.

[dodrudon]

Hmm, I've been meaning to revisit those builds. The Shadow Tank has just too crummy saves, but that was before the Legendary Save feats came out. I think the last time I checked, I had a will save of 20 even at level 44 or something, maybe just ignore will completely because it's nearly impossible to bring it up high enough to 60 (unless that was completely unbuffed, then +26 is 46, and add 9 from normal and legendary save feats is 55, and the epic for 59, but that's fully buffed....).

[phalthallus]

I also wondered about trying a build with paladin in there, and using rakshasa. +4 charisma, and SR of 15 + 1/level...

Just another thought to add to the mix.

Regardless, I think those are great ideas in both posts, and hope to tweak them to suit my fancy if possible. I've been hearing that saves of 70+ will be needed in the Hells, so I think we'll have to figure out a way to get those LL save feats in there. The HS levels, if taken pre-epic, would help with that, as would Monk levels somewhere.

[_Tachyon_]

Thanks to all for the comments. I am planning a new toon when I get bogged down with the Troll and my current goal is just getting to know HG. Just picked up my Ring of Lev.

[chainlink]

Quietly put the Troll in a cupboard and use another subby, the acid and fire vunerabilities are just too much to live with as even on the immo run you'll be facing things that badly hurt you with both of these elements when you hit them. Your only choice will be to avoid hitting them which is not really an option for a Str tank.