Sand Proof Dwarf?

[jersak]

I was playing around with the idea and I thought I'd throw it out there to see what kind of reaction I get. I honestly don't have a lot of first-hand experience with DDs, but from what I hear and have seen DDs have extremely good surviveability. The one thing that they seem to lack is good saves. Now, this is way out of the box, and I might be off my rocker, but what if I went with a Paladin/Blackguard/Dwarven Defender? You could get away with a 8/2/30 split for full DD benefits. You would also have a X2 CHA modifier to all saves. If you started with a +CHA subbie and then got a +12 CHA item you could have some pretty impressive saves. You would get these saves at the cost of the tumble AC bonus, and the RDD strength bonus. This would wind up as an extremely defensive character, but you wouldn't have to run from a pile of sand.

What do you think? I tried it in the tester with Rakshasa (-1 STR, but I don't have that many subbies available ) It seems feasible, but do you think it's worth the effort? It's really a stretch on stat points. Espescially that 13 DEX needed for Dodge. Any thoughts are welcome. If you tried this what subbie would you use? If this is a downright terrible idea, feel free to say so. I'm still learning.

Thanks.

[thedomicron]

play around with a monk/dd build. pick whichever 3rd class you'd like, but if you get 9 monk (8 pre-20) you can end up with a good base saves as well as improved evasion.

you can also do a 8 fighter 2 bg 30 dd build, using fighter bonus feats to get your main feats such as weapon focus imp crit etc, and then use your normal feats for pre-epic saves so that you can get the legendary saves feats should land you with a hard-hitting, sturdy str based tank.

look through the builds and see what you like, customize it and go for it. ask lots of questions on the way.

FYI: a good goal is 60 to all saves. if you plan on shooting for the hells, 65 should be the goal.

[exeli]

My final saves with bard-RDD-DD will be 67-65-68, i wouldn't say that they're bad.

[zerragon]

My 'tin can' ended with 63 on all saves, not too shabby.

[jersak]

Really? You're able to get saves over 60? I guess the saves aren't really aren't as much of a problem as I thought. I was looking at lvl 40 naked stats. The Tin Can naked lvl 40 saves are listed as 28/21/26. That seems low, but I guess it's acceptable if by lvl 60 you can get them at or around 60.

[ekstroem]

jersak said:

Really? You're able to get saves over 60? I guess the saves aren't really aren't as much of a problem as I thought. I was looking at lvl 40 naked stats. The Tin Can naked lvl 40 saves are listed as 28/21/26. That seems low, but I guess it's acceptable if by lvl 60 you can get them at or around 60.

I have this rule of thumb when I examine toons in the test chamber: The magic number to reach for saves is 27 (to manage DC 60) or 32 (to manage DC 65). The reason is that apart from the additional save feats taken during legendary levels you can add 31 to the number seen @ 40 in the test chamber.

The 31 comes from: +6 (maxing equipment for WIS, DEX and CON), +5 (save increase from LLs), +20 (from equipment).

So if your new build has a will save of, say, 25 you'd want to include epic or legendary will (to reach 29 or 32, respectively) in order to have decent saves for the legendary areas.

Not that the 27/32 numbers can be lowered if you include at least 1 paladin level or 2 black guard levels in your build and can find equipment to maximize your CHA.

For the screen dump showing the (first version) of the Tin Can build there is a reflex save of 21. Note that epic reflexes is taken in legendary levels which increases this to 25. Not perfect but still decent. If you look later in the Tin Can thread you'll see a newer version of the build that includes the legendary save feats and get a final reflex save of 65.

Cheers,

Claus

[jersak]

Thanks for the advice. Especially that 27-32 rule of thumb, Claus. That's extremely helpfull. I guess I just never added all the numbers up like that. I'll have to remember that one.

I guess I'll shelf the save crazy paladin/blackguard/DD for now, but the idea of a DD who isn't quite so stubbie is still kinda appealing. Imagine the look on the look on the Devs face when he thinks he's going up against another Rakshasa caster only to find himself face to face with a sturdy DD. All things considered that would be fun, but not worth the costs. Thanks again guys.

[Yomi]

Depending on what you're looking for, you can substitute two great str feats from something like the tin can to put in save feats such as legendary or epic reflexes and legendary luck. Or figure out what else you could drop. This enables saves of 65+.

Saves really take a jump when you put on all the +save / +stat gear which usually means level 40. I've played toons that I'd calculated out decent saves for but been very worried in the 30's when I see saves of 20 something. After shuffling equipment at 40 the numbers can go up a lot.

A discussion of necessary saves would be interesting. Outside of pyramid and Hells, saves of 49 are probably good enough to keep you from cursing low saves (you won't make every save against DB's breath with this for example, and nothing but immunity is going to stop you from rolling a 1 eventually vs. implosions, but once I hit this point I haven't been cursing low saves as the problem). DC 50 attacks seem to be the most common in the usual LL areas from what I recall. We've been told that heartseeker fort saves for a plate wearer is 52, so if you plan on pyramid (and Tin Can along with most good RDD and DD builds is a good choice for it), better bump them up some, and I think 54 is a decent target (enabling you to make DC 55 saves since a 1 will fail regardless).

Saves over 60 are, in my opinion, not worth spending extra feats on if you never visit the Hells. In the Hells you have an overall save reduction of up to 5 points. Right there you're going to have to bump everything up 2-5 points. Then you get a few mobs that relentlessly drop your saves, softening you up for their insta-kill. You should do restores often but sometimes you can't afford to spend every round clicking on it. Bumping those saves up gives you more leeway (I've seen my fort save go from 61 in town to 44 which is really scary when there are things making you roll DC 55 fort saves vs. death). Generally the save DC's are higher also, so if you plan the character as a Hells runner, then spending feats to get great saves is not a bad idea at all.

P.S. By sacrificing two great str feats on my Tin Can like DD, I could get saves to 65 fort, 69 reflex, 64 will using 6 save feats. Combine that with 130+ AC, over 70% physical damage immune and 15 points of DD damage reduction, immunity to fire and can use pentavite shield for 100% electric, and almost 1400hp, and he's a pretty hardy tank. Claus shows a variant in a recent post that gets saves of 66, 65, 65 (spending 8 save feats) has 1 higher AC, gains a free feat vs. the old build, at the cost of 3 points of DD damage reduction which isn't going to hurt you much.

[thedomicron]

does the +6 from charisma on non pally/bg builds not count towards the +20 cap? wierd i always thought it did...

[Bakchuda]

I'm not sure what you are thinking there dom, but a non pally/bg character gets no save bonus from charisma. It is only added because of the feats that a pally/bg gets.

[ekstroem]

thedomicron said:

does the +6 from charisma on non pally/bg builds not count towards the +20 cap?

No. The extra plusses from pally/bg are not included in the +20 cap from items. However, the plusses from CoT are part of the +20 cap.

Cheers,

Claus

[chainlink]

So with both Pally (1) & Blackguard (2) levels as per my monk build you get +12 to all saves for a +12 Cha item assuming you didn't start with a Cha of below 10.

[thedomicron]

i'm sorry, i was really tired, i meant the +6 from stat-based save (fort, dex, wis etc)

[dodrudon]

Yeah you are tired, you mean con =)

No, bonuses from stat modifiers (including boosted stats) are counted as part of base save, as are feats and points from level progression.

The Spellcraft bonus, however, does count towards the +20, and notably it includes and skill modifiers as well. Unfortunately most saves are vs custom creature abilities and not spells.... All abilities, songs, buffs, item properties, etc also count towards the +20.