slippery mind

[thedomicron]

given that 63 is enough for all saves in the hells (rolling a 1 on 58 is the same as rolling 1 on 60) how low would you guys risk having a will save if you had slippery mind?

[dodrudon]

Well having slippery mind gives you an extra roll, so you it basically squares the chance you'll fail.

So if you fail the roll 50% of the time, SM drops that to 25%, if you fail 75% of the time, that drops to ~57% of the time. If you beat the saves on all but 1s and had SM as well, that's .25% chance of failing.

So to get the same performance as infinite will save, you'd take the root of 5% which is ~22% so you'd want a will save of 60, which gives you a 4% chance of failing, or 59 for 6.25%, or 58 for a 9% chance of failing, so ideally a save of 60.

Of course, this is assuming SM actually applies to those saves....

[Bakchuda]

As I recall from a post earlier complaining about how SM doesn't work with things that should be mind-affecting, (it was in the Bug Report forum, too lazy to go find it) there are few now and not many that may be added that actually work with Slippery Mind. So I would not risk any of my will save on that feat.

[fusa]

It works against some creatures specialized attacks and some it doesn't. Even with over 60 will you roll plenty of 1's to make slippery mind a useful feat, but if you're very short on feats I wouldnt sacrifice a needed one for it.

[Yomi]

thedomicron said:

given that 63 is enough for all saves in the hells (rolling a 1 on 58 is the same as rolling 1 on 60) how low would you guys risk having a will save if you had slippery mind?

I don't know anyone who has done Cania yet, much less Nessus. Nessus may be one area that's harder than the rest as the reward for finishing it will be significantly greater than elsewhere (from what I recall of conversations quite some time ago). Whether it will require extra high will saves I don't have any idea (other than I'd be surprised if we didn't see -5 or worse penalty to all saves).

Through Maladomini I think you're probably right on the saves where even 62 should be enough for will saves (minus 4 from Hells penalty gives 58, which means you'll make DC60 saves as well as you would with any higher will save value). Looking through more logs it may be that for some builds than can ignore the Styx even a 60 might be enough. That doesn't count Cania and Nessus.

Assuming it applies, Slippery Mind is very effective if you're near the top of the will save range, meaning you're failing only on very low rolls. If you're in the low 50s on will saves you should take epic will instead (assuming Hells as a target). SM only applies to mind-affecting spells. The DC55 will save from Amnizus is listed as a mind spell, so it's likely it would work. But the DC57 will save from the Ancient Baatorian, for instance, is not listed as a mind spell. My guess is slippery mind doesn't work against it. Similarly the River Styx effect. As fusa says, it will work on some and not others. I don't know if the log saying "vs. mind spells" is a good indicator or not.

Personally I'd spend the feat elsewhere. Looking at a new build meant for Hells with a will save of 61 I'm on the fence about taking epic will to bring it to 65. Fortunately by the time he'll worry about the feat I should know more about saves.