tin can vs. monk/dd/wm

[flynn01]

I did two test builds and am trying to decide between them.

The first was the tin can. The second was a 11 monk/7 wm/22dd.

Tin can offers:
Fire immunity
UMD
better attack and damage
higher str (so better DD abilities)

the monk build offers:
Monk speed
improved evasion (a biggie)
better skills

They have comparable saves
oddly enough, crit damage balances out too in these builds.

Discussion?

Is is speed, imp evasion and skills worth it?

[ekstroem]

flynn01 said:

I did two test builds and am trying to decide between them.

The first was the tin can. The second was a 11 monk/7 wm/22dd.

Tin can offers:
Fire immunity
UMD
better attack and damage
higher str (so better DD abilities)

the monk build offers:
Monk speed
improved evasion (a biggie)
better skills

They have comparable saves
oddly enough, crit damage balances out too in these builds.

Discussion?
Is is speed, imp evasion and skills worth it?

Is that a STR build monk or DEX? I suppose STR to use the DD abilities. That would mean your AC would be low and you'd be wearing something else than robes, so you'd get no monk speed or monk AC bonus. Same goes if you plan to use a shield.
Improved evasion is nice (even just evasion is nice). What do you intend to use the extra skill points for?

Cheers,

Claus

[flynn01]

A, true, yes it would be outfitted as a str tank. Speed removed from consideration. So that really just leaves evasion in the positives then. Bah.

[sabregirl]

The monk build offers considerably better saves due to preepic monk progression, if I'm not mistaken. Monk WM DD is very hard to pull off with anything but Howler due to the high stat requirements for WM. So if I weren't using Howler I'd probably go for tin can or another DD build

-S

[Yomi]

My two cents.

As Claus points out, you only get monk bonuses such as the fast movement, extra kama/fist attacks, and wisdom AC bonus if you wear robes and have no shield. If you equip a shield, for instance, all that stuff goes away. With a str build you'd have to do shield and plate or your AC will be horrible. If you do dex then you lose out on the special damage immunity and natural armor bonuses DD's get on HG.

The 10 RDD levels grant you not only fire immunity but +4 AC and pretty hefty stat bonuses (+8 str, +2 con, +2 int, +2 cha). UMD lets you read some very nice scrolls such as GS, blade, mind blank, clarity, gust of wind, keen, stone to flesh, mord, and others.

Tin Can does not have evasion. However, it has good reflex saves (in the 60s if you want it), lots of immunities to reduce damage taken, and a ton of hp to buffer them. I was surprised how little damage I was taking in ssith acadamy when the mages all started spamming meteors. It's no bard or halfling death that wonders what all the flashing lights and stuff is all about and why teammates seem to be taking damage from something, but it's able to keep dishing out damage. That said, evasion and imp evasion are wonderful and some other builds will get creamed for the lack of it.

What surprised me is that you found similar damage output. That's one area the bard6/WM7/RDD27 builds really excel for instance -- they definitely put out more damage. Mish's WM (might be the F18/R3/WM19 one, not sure) utterly crushes the Tin Can in damage output. I've partied with DD's who had 7 WM levels and their damage output is higher, though less AC and have to handle fire immunity. One key with a WM build is to choose the right weapon -- I'd recommend scimitar.

[Yomi]

sabregirl said:

The monk build offers considerably better saves due to preepic monk progression, if I'm not mistaken.

A Tin Can like build can get saves of 65 fort, 69 reflex, and 64 will at the expense of two great strength feats. Since RDD gives +8 strength this is acceptable. Using Battlerager would increase saves even more due to the two free feats as well as give a nice str boost from the subrace. Howler would be even nicer.

Monk WM DD is very hard to pull off with anything but Howler due to the high stat requirements for WM. So if I weren't using Howler I'd probably go for tin can or another DD build

Most of the ones I've seen have been something like Dwarf of Steel which is 6F 7WM 27DD. I seem to remember someone making a very nice Monk/WM/DD using Battlerager though the -2 INT would have to be taken into account. If you wanted to go against the grain, Planewalker gives +2 INT.