Kenku vs. Fallen Angel

[dodrudon]

Am I missing something? It seems Kenku, a secret subrace, is (arguably) better than Fallen Angel, a UR, at least for a caster cleric. FA just doesn't seem a significantly and an immediately obviously better choice than Kenku at first glance, as it should be.

Fallen Angel
+5 Wis, +2 Cha
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Strider
+10 Heal

Kenku
-1 Str, -1 Int, +4 Wis
Lightning Reflexes
Spell Focus Abjuration

Currently I'm planning a caster cleric. I'm definitely giving him Epic Reflexes and Legendary Reflexes, as well as the epics for Abjuration (Aegis, lots of goodies), , Evocation (dominate without save, ALL damage spells with saves AND Implosion), and Divination from the book (for Miracle). I've compared these two subbies using a human with a level of monk/pally cheese.

Base stats:
9 Str, 8 Dex
FA Stats
16 Con, 17(22) Wis, 12 Int, 12(14) Cha
Kenku Stats
14 Con, 18(22)Wis, 13(12) Int, 10 Cha

Going FA you get: 60HP, +2 saves
Going Kenku you get: two free feats

If you get all the normal feats....
2x Epic Spell Focuses (3rd from book)
3x Silent/Empower/Max
3x Spell Penetration
3x Reflex Feats
2x Luck of Heroes + Legendary
10x Great Wisdom

You end up with 2 free feats as FA, one of which is probably spent on Armor Skin. As Kenku, you get 4 free feats, so even with Armor Skin you can get another focus. Even as Kenku, you can get saves (with the above progression) to 65 for reflex, 66 for fortitude.

So with a very normal caster cleric build, it seems Kenku is better than FA. You don't get strider, Divine Might, or Divine Shield,

but how often do you use the Divine feats as high levels? For Divine Shield, Dodge is usually maxed out anyways. Even in the last circle of hell, where the AC penalty is 18, a bard song boosts AC by 13-15, so you're only missing a few points. And that's an extreme case. And it only lasts 1round/ChaMod, which is less than a minute with fully buffed Cha (26 Cha = 8 rounds). And Divine Might is for those with AB, not a caster.

Also, strider is only useful in desert, which many people get sick of quickly. You don't absolutely need that extra ring slot while in desert or first part of DB, it's merely convenience.

You lose 60 HP, but that's not too bad. You get more feats so you can just pick up Toughness (although admittedly FA can as well).

You lose 2 to saves, but your saves are already in the mid-60s. Extremely respectable.

You lose 10 Heal, but that just means you have 10 extra skill points left at level 40 sitting around.

Even if you think that it's worth going FA over Kenku, having all this stuff instead of two more feats, FA is not that much better than Kenku. Take a look at Half-Celestial, the BUR version of FA.

+6 Wis
+4 Cha
SF: Evocation, GSF: Evocation
ESF: Heal
SR: 10 + 1/Lvl
Strider

On top of normal FA, you get
+1 Wis
+2 Cha
+2 Feats
STACKING Heal Skill Bonus
SR!!!

Whereas, FA, the UR version of Kenku, you get
+1 Str (ignorable for caster build)
+1 Int
+1 Wis
+2 Cha
-2 Feats
Divine Might/Shield (value is arguable, see commentary above)
+10 Heal (pretty useless, see commentary)
+Strider

Am I missing something? If I'm not going crazy and enough people agree with me then maybe this thread will change to a subrace tweak request thread.

[sabregirl]

Not all UR subraces are necessarily BETTER than the secret versions, especially those including Illithid, Rakshasa and Kenku. There is no UR equivalent for thid or rak, and I would look at FA as simply being *different* from Kenku rather than automatically better at one particular build type. Only the BUR subraces are automatically at the top of the classes for which they are designed. Divine shield does more than just max out dodge modifier, it also gives divine immunity and a bit of KB damage, though you're right about divine might not being useful for a caster cleric.

I wouldn't say the +10 heal is useless, it gives you some more flexibility in skill points which are ALWAYS tight on a cleric and +1 to +2 on all saves is nothing to be sneezed at. Strider is damn nice as it gives you some versatility especially on harbingers trail. Overall FA is a far more versatile race than kenku, warranting its elevated status among UR races . . . and FA is absolutely *perfect* for a battle cleric.

-S

[phalthallus]

I'd say, too, that FA is a lot more flexible. I tried and tried to make a melee cleric's stats come out with Kenku, and you just can't do it. Even Aasimar is better by a couple of points.

FA makes a good Paladin or BG who wants Divine Might/Shield too; getting those for free opens up 3 feats for any of those 3 classes (not requiring Power Attack now).

So I think what makes FA more valuable than Kenku is its flexibility. You can make a caster cleric or druid with either, with similar results. But FA opens up other options as well.

[setekhi]

The issue does seem to be that you're assuming that FA is designed as a caster cleric race, despite the fact that its two bonus feats are useless for casters. I think the real question is: how good is Kenku for caster druids?

All I know is I'm getting in on some of this Kenku business

[bort]

What you're clearly missing here is the most important factor in deciding which race to use:
Fallen Angel gets added wings.
Kenku gets the wings, feathers and beak

[phalthallus]

bort said:

What you're clearly missing here is the most important factor in deciding which race to use:
Fallen Angel gets added wings.
Kenku gets the wings, feathers and beak

And something like 6 versions of the look as well.

Winner, Kenku. ;D

[thedomicron]

keep in mind there were plenty of people making planewalker wizards instead of illithid, dopple druids, exeli has a FA bard/aa, Tyr's wizards is a tiefling gnome and delf has a drow wizard (god don't we all know it by now ) and they're all great cahracters.

when 2 subraces are as similar as kenku and FA, and many times even when they don't, style comes into play. i know many people don't use combat casting, going with defensive casting mode, etc. some people prefer high saves to offense, some people sacrifice etc. decide which you think you'd enjoy more, in the end that character will be more fun to play, stronger because you enjoy him, and will go further and help you to learn more about your style and the way you handle situations

[borges]

Kenku don't have wings. Feathers and beak are still a go, however. The different looks are quite nice, though two of them are more rogue-ish looking (one even sports a quiver!). Not appropriate for a vessel of the faith, imo .

Regarding the builds, I agree with dodrudon that for the standard 38/1/1 caster cleric build, Kenku is better than FA. It gives you the option of a fourth epic--which, from the reports we're getting from the demi-god squad, should be Girding--at relatively small cost. That +10 heal is nice, however, since it lets you go 10 INT, 16 CHA and still have 55 heal at lvl 60. It's like a free Luck of Heroes!

Cheers, Perin

[phalthallus]

demi-god squad

LOL - Nice

Another option for this subrace that a friend of mine pointed out is Ranger. Leave wisdom at 10 to get all spell slots, and spend the rest of your points accordingly. No bonus to dex, but no penalty either. Plus Abjuration is important to one of the new changes to Ranger spells.

Just food for thought.

Oh, and the rogue-ish looking appearance, with a quiver? Fits nicely for a ranger.

[Ironfang]

phalthallus said:

bort said:

What you're clearly missing here is the most important factor in deciding which race to use:
Fallen Angel gets added wings.
Kenku gets the wings, feathers and beak

And something like 6 versions of the look as well.

Winner, Kenku. ;D

Poor Azrael1972 who used Kenku as his doppleganger form many months ago to look different and stand out in the crowd. I know he got a lot of compliments on it too so I am sure you shall all enjoy it.

[dodrudon]

bort said:

What you're clearly missing here is the most important factor in deciding which race to use:
Fallen Angel gets added wings.
Kenku gets the wings, feathers and beak

;D Thanks bort, that's the nail in the coffin for me!

Poor Az....

Yeah FA would be perfect for battle cleric, but its become the stereotypical Cleric build because of the stat bonus. I guess with Kenku now it (FA) can resume its role as Battle Cleric subby as it was intended to be. It'd be nice if Kenku got +5 wis instead, but I guess that extra point of wis gives two free feats that Rak and Thid don't get (well, one extra feat for thid).

Though now Shade has a reason to be improved ;D

Also, how is the 10 heal useful? If you're maxing out stats, it's useless.

Time to go questing again....

[PotsNPans]

Don not discuss secrets on the forums.
Thanks,
The management

[PotsNPans]

No, seriously. Do NOT ask about secrets on the forums.
Funky

[Farang162]

Hey,

Just started a cleric caster with Kenku... Ran it through the CBC but the -1 int wasn't picked up. Hit Level 7 when i realised DOH!! Only 3 skill points per level... Gonna delete the toon and start again with 13. Aside from that.. cool subby (especially with the quiver and BIG beak outfit) and it looks as though it should rock.

Regards

Trubble

ps: If this is the wrong thread and it should go on CBC please move at your will...

[dodrudon]

=D Yeah all the Kenku models look awesome! Very happy it got added.