Post by dodrudon on Mar 14, 2007 8:47:19 GMT
Am I missing something? It seems Kenku, a secret subrace, is (arguably) better than Fallen Angel, a UR, at least for a caster cleric. FA just doesn't seem a significantly and an immediately obviously better choice than Kenku at first glance, as it should be.
Fallen Angel
+5 Wis, +2 Cha
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Strider
+10 Heal
Kenku
-1 Str, -1 Int, +4 Wis
Lightning Reflexes
Spell Focus Abjuration
Currently I'm planning a caster cleric. I'm definitely giving him Epic Reflexes and Legendary Reflexes, as well as the epics for Abjuration (Aegis, lots of goodies), , Evocation (dominate without save, ALL damage spells with saves AND Implosion), and Divination from the book (for Miracle). I've compared these two subbies using a human with a level of monk/pally cheese.
Base stats:
9 Str, 8 Dex
FA Stats
16 Con, 17(22) Wis, 12 Int, 12(14) Cha
Kenku Stats
14 Con, 18(22)Wis, 13(12) Int, 10 Cha
Going FA you get: 60HP, +2 saves
Going Kenku you get: two free feats
If you get all the normal feats....
2x Epic Spell Focuses (3rd from book)
3x Silent/Empower/Max
3x Spell Penetration
3x Reflex Feats
2x Luck of Heroes + Legendary
10x Great Wisdom
You end up with 2 free feats as FA, one of which is probably spent on Armor Skin. As Kenku, you get 4 free feats, so even with Armor Skin you can get another focus. Even as Kenku, you can get saves (with the above progression) to 65 for reflex, 66 for fortitude.
So with a very normal caster cleric build, it seems Kenku is better than FA. You don't get strider, Divine Might, or Divine Shield,
but how often do you use the Divine feats as high levels? For Divine Shield, Dodge is usually maxed out anyways. Even in the last circle of hell, where the AC penalty is 18, a bard song boosts AC by 13-15, so you're only missing a few points. And that's an extreme case. And it only lasts 1round/ChaMod, which is less than a minute with fully buffed Cha (26 Cha = 8 rounds). And Divine Might is for those with AB, not a caster.
Also, strider is only useful in desert, which many people get sick of quickly. You don't absolutely need that extra ring slot while in desert or first part of DB, it's merely convenience.
You lose 60 HP, but that's not too bad. You get more feats so you can just pick up Toughness (although admittedly FA can as well).
You lose 2 to saves, but your saves are already in the mid-60s. Extremely respectable.
You lose 10 Heal, but that just means you have 10 extra skill points left at level 40 sitting around.
Even if you think that it's worth going FA over Kenku, having all this stuff instead of two more feats, FA is not that much better than Kenku. Take a look at Half-Celestial, the BUR version of FA.
+6 Wis
+4 Cha
SF: Evocation, GSF: Evocation
ESF: Heal
SR: 10 + 1/Lvl
Strider
On top of normal FA, you get
+1 Wis
+2 Cha
+2 Feats
STACKING Heal Skill Bonus
SR!!!
Whereas, FA, the UR version of Kenku, you get
+1 Str (ignorable for caster build)
+1 Int
+1 Wis
+2 Cha
-2 Feats
Divine Might/Shield (value is arguable, see commentary above)
+10 Heal (pretty useless, see commentary)
+Strider
Am I missing something? If I'm not going crazy and enough people agree with me then maybe this thread will change to a subrace tweak request thread.
Fallen Angel
+5 Wis, +2 Cha
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Strider
+10 Heal
Kenku
-1 Str, -1 Int, +4 Wis
Lightning Reflexes
Spell Focus Abjuration
Currently I'm planning a caster cleric. I'm definitely giving him Epic Reflexes and Legendary Reflexes, as well as the epics for Abjuration (Aegis, lots of goodies), , Evocation (dominate without save, ALL damage spells with saves AND Implosion), and Divination from the book (for Miracle). I've compared these two subbies using a human with a level of monk/pally cheese.
Base stats:
9 Str, 8 Dex
FA Stats
16 Con, 17(22) Wis, 12 Int, 12(14) Cha
Kenku Stats
14 Con, 18(22)Wis, 13(12) Int, 10 Cha
Going FA you get: 60HP, +2 saves
Going Kenku you get: two free feats
If you get all the normal feats....
2x Epic Spell Focuses (3rd from book)
3x Silent/Empower/Max
3x Spell Penetration
3x Reflex Feats
2x Luck of Heroes + Legendary
10x Great Wisdom
You end up with 2 free feats as FA, one of which is probably spent on Armor Skin. As Kenku, you get 4 free feats, so even with Armor Skin you can get another focus. Even as Kenku, you can get saves (with the above progression) to 65 for reflex, 66 for fortitude.
So with a very normal caster cleric build, it seems Kenku is better than FA. You don't get strider, Divine Might, or Divine Shield,
but how often do you use the Divine feats as high levels? For Divine Shield, Dodge is usually maxed out anyways. Even in the last circle of hell, where the AC penalty is 18, a bard song boosts AC by 13-15, so you're only missing a few points. And that's an extreme case. And it only lasts 1round/ChaMod, which is less than a minute with fully buffed Cha (26 Cha = 8 rounds). And Divine Might is for those with AB, not a caster.
Also, strider is only useful in desert, which many people get sick of quickly. You don't absolutely need that extra ring slot while in desert or first part of DB, it's merely convenience.
You lose 60 HP, but that's not too bad. You get more feats so you can just pick up Toughness (although admittedly FA can as well).
You lose 2 to saves, but your saves are already in the mid-60s. Extremely respectable.
You lose 10 Heal, but that just means you have 10 extra skill points left at level 40 sitting around.
Even if you think that it's worth going FA over Kenku, having all this stuff instead of two more feats, FA is not that much better than Kenku. Take a look at Half-Celestial, the BUR version of FA.
+6 Wis
+4 Cha
SF: Evocation, GSF: Evocation
ESF: Heal
SR: 10 + 1/Lvl
Strider
On top of normal FA, you get
+1 Wis
+2 Cha
+2 Feats
STACKING Heal Skill Bonus
SR!!!
Whereas, FA, the UR version of Kenku, you get
+1 Str (ignorable for caster build)
+1 Int
+1 Wis
+2 Cha
-2 Feats
Divine Might/Shield (value is arguable, see commentary above)
+10 Heal (pretty useless, see commentary)
+Strider
Am I missing something? If I'm not going crazy and enough people agree with me then maybe this thread will change to a subrace tweak request thread.