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Post by sabregirl on Feb 8, 2007 3:19:06 GMT
This is an oddball build I came up with a while back. It has thus far worked pretty well for me and is an excellent performer in the pyramid and dustbone runs.
My version of this, Heli'Gadan, (who's missing the 4th attack and a point of AB from this version) been to all the major areas, and was Tiamat tagged this afternoon. He performed relatively well suffering generally minor damage except on crits and the inevitable issues with dragon breath and no evasion.
Race- "Half-Dragon - White" - requires Human (adds wings) STR +2, DEX +1, INT -2, 65% immune cold, 150% vulnerable fire, speaks Draconic
8 Bard, 10 RDD, 22 WM
progression: 5 bard - 8 rdd - 5 wm - 2 rdd - 16wm- 1 bard
Pros- RDD cancels out the fire weakness leaving you both immune to fire and 65% cold immune without any rings. Relatively high AB and better crits of a weaponmaster on two different weapons. High AC for a str build - 122 unbuffed with full UR gear. Str fighter with PP, lore, tumble and UMD.
Cons- Low HP, no evasion (same as other RDDs), mediocre saves all around. No shapestrong for large weapons. Very low ab with anything other than weapons of choice. Stuck with medium armor until weaponmaster is reached, painfully weak to fire until lvl 22.
Very feat tight - not much flexibility due to race and wm
Starting Stats (starting class - bard) STR 15 (17) DEX 13 (14) CON 12 WIS 10 INT 15 (13) CHA 11
Feat Progression
1- expertise, martial weapon proficiency 3- dodge 6- mobility 9- spring attack 12- weapon focus - weapon of choice 15- whirlwind attack 16(wpn)- Weapon of choice 18-Armor Profciency Heavy 21-Blind fight 24-improved critical weap of choice 27- weapon focus - 2nd weapon 28(wpn)- armor skin 30- great str 1 31(wpn)- Epic Weapon Focus 33- great str 2 34(wpn)- epic prowess 36- great str 3 37(wpn)- weapon of choice 2 39- great str 4
Legendary Feats- Epic Will Epic Fortitude Epic Reflexes grt str 5-8
Skills - on bard levels max discipline, tumble, PP and UMD, extras throw into whatever you like, I ended up with a bunch in lore. Don't forget to put those 4 points in indimidate for WM.
Weapons - I chose 1 slashing and 1 blunt weapon, since a lot of creatures are weak to blunt damage. I chose battleaxe but scimitar or longsword might be good choices as well, warhammer is probably the best choice for blunt but I chose light flail due to the damage types on the dustbone version of the weapon. The Hells version of the light flail is also very nice and given my inability to take a feat for improved critical on the weapon I use it primarily on crit immune creatures.
Saves- At lvl 55 with all epic saving throw feats taken Heli has saves of 55, 56, 55. These are sufficient for most things outside of the hells though perhaps could be improved with the legendary save feats.
Comments- Some might say drop heavy armor prof and use the cloak of worldliness but if you crash in the middle of a boss battle - you come back naked and unable to equip your armor, though that might allow the toughness feat to be taken and the build to break 900 HP at 60. Seems to work reasonably well as is despite the low hp. Could swap out two of the great str feats for 2 great cons or perhaps one of the pre-epic saves to qualify for the new legendary save feats. AB at lvl 55 (with typical +13 gmw) is currently in the mid 70s. As with most STR builds it is at it's best with excellent equipment, belt of bestial resistance, unitary focus for maxing stats and +18 UR or beholder plates.
-S
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Post by the1kobra on Feb 8, 2007 4:12:44 GMT
Hmmm, interesting build,,, quite interesting too, its a very similar one to the one I used on a PvP server before I came to higher ground. I focused in rapiers, and it was a 10-20 Devcrit build, but that doesn't work here. :*( Anyway, just some comments on the build, 1: I noticed, in the cons, you mentioned a BAB by 20 of 15, not allawing the fourth attack. I noticed you put in by 20 a 5/10/5 brd/RDD/WM combo, however, I remember if you put a combonation of 7/8/5, you get the BAB of 16. I noticed you also put two extra RDD lvls in epic lvls, so, you might want to consider taking a 8/10/22 combonation. I would suggest something like: 5 Brd, 7 RDD, 5 WM, 1 RDD, 2 brd, 2 rdd, 17 Wm, 1 Bard. 2: I have not had much experience in hells, but I'm not sure if the second weapon of choice is a good idea. As I said, going by my old specifications, there was no reason to take any other weapon on a PvP server, but here i'm not as sure. This build doesnt dual wield, so i'm not sure of the point. At any rate, if you trash the second focus and wpn of choice, it allaws for an extra 2 into great str, and I think by 60 a GS of 10. Then again, you would probably know this better than I. Nice build overall. I guess if the player was crazy they could switch things around to get exotic proficiency at 3, but there are so many more martial weapons. Oh, and the heavy armor is really nice, simply because you might not even live to get the cloak. No such thing as a heavy armor prof cloak on the other server, so taking it was a must. P.S: remember to take OV crit and Devcrit, 10-20 crits are really nice with it,,, oh wait, wrong server.
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Post by sabregirl on Feb 8, 2007 8:32:08 GMT
Problem is this is a just in time build. You don't have the feats to get wm at lvl 12 unless you go with simple weapons for your weapon of choice . . . er club of choice anyone? Earliest you can get weaponmaster with martial/exotic is lvl 16. Unless you had a way to *magically* get an extra feat towards weaponmaster before lvl 12 it can't be done with martial weapons. I looked at exotic weapons but there really aren't any nice bludgeoning ones so I scrapped the idea. (there must be something I can do with all these katanas) Lot of critters are weak to bludgeoning but other times you just want the big/frequent crits. And switching weapons depending on the critter you're hitting is a way of life for me on HG . A second weapon of choice was partially done because otherwise the 4th wm bonus feat would have to be wasted on something silly like say epic toughness or superior initiative. And as the AB of this build is abysmal on anything other than a weapon of choice. A second one for more options seemed a natural solution. You're only giving up 1 feat to get the wm bonus feat you want so losing 1 grt strength (since WM doesn't get grt strength as bonus) doesn't seem like too big of a deal to me. He hits hard and doesn't get in the way like *other* RDDs. -S
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Post by thedomicron on Feb 8, 2007 9:19:33 GMT
i think we all know who's got the better strengthie w/ red wings b/w you and me anyhow while the immunity of half-dragon white is good for the rdd part of your build, i think you should adapt this build for a bit more depth with a bur subby which can take advantage of and add to your strengths of higher than average ac, PP etc while also making up for some of your weaknesses like lack of feats, low con etc... as much as i hate to say it, have you considered this as a dex-based build? it would enhance your reflex saves, ac, and pp. i think your damage output would increase overall if you also mixed in a bur subby as you'd be able to get wm with more weapons, higher crit ranges etc. just some thoughts on expanding on your build and giving it some depth. i've seen you in action and you're almost as awesome as me
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Post by the1kobra on Feb 8, 2007 19:19:35 GMT
whoops... noticed that... Still, can't you get it at 15? you get a feat at that level.. so you could go... 1Brd Martwpn+dodge 2Brd 3Brd Mobility 4Brd 5Brd 6RDD Weapon Focus 7Brd 8RDD 9RDD Expertise 10RDD 11RDD 12RDD Spring attack 13RDD 14RDD 15Brd Whirlwind Attack And with the other 5 get WM. The trick is to not take the ninth RDD lvl until epic levels. 7/8 gives you a BAB of 11, wheras 5/10 gives you 10.
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Post by sabregirl on Feb 8, 2007 19:46:26 GMT
Kobra- Nope, doesn't make any difference whether you take WM at 15 or 16, on your BAB anyway - minimum for 4 attacks in this sort of situation is 7 WM levels before epic and it's not possible with HD - white. Though it would gain you 1 point on your reflex save. Domicron- The main point of the build was to get the silly cold resist to give even more gear options, and to find a build most suited to utilizing the potential RDD/white half dragon option. Also thought it was nice to post a build that doesn't require an BUR/UR subrace, or even a secret one for that matter. However, a similar WM/RDD build would be exellent with any subrace that gives you one or more of the feats towards weaponmaster for free. If I get bored in the near future I'll post a version utlilizing another race. Stinger would proabably be one of the better options since your character size is increased to large you could focus in large weapons. -S P.S. - Dex based is crack smokery
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Post by the1kobra on Feb 8, 2007 20:21:58 GMT
Anyway, as can be seen in the image, I am getting 4 attacks, (5 wm levels cannot be seen), and I have the rapier's crit multiplier to X3, proving I took weaponmaster. Unless I am blind (or unless the image doesnt load), this seems quite plauseable proof.
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Post by sabregirl on Feb 9, 2007 1:31:31 GMT
Ahh bummer you're right, so needs to be 5 bard 8 rdd 2 bard 5wm, the other 2 rdd lvls after lvl 20, and yes you can get 4 attacks and +1 bab over the build as is. Saves are unchanged. Lose a few HP taking bard levels instead of rdd lvls but no biggie. Ahem . . . *revises build* Will suck being stuck with fire weakness for longer tho -S
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Post by exidorthequick on Feb 9, 2007 15:18:24 GMT
I have two HD-White RDD characters and I definitely like the combination. Hopefully it will make gear choices a bit easier, especially when immunity to several different damage types is needed.
Neither of my characters took WM as the third class, but this looks like a neat build.
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Post by riftrider on Mar 4, 2007 17:30:50 GMT
Hey there! I was wondering if you would mind posting changes for this build you would make 4 a Kolyarut version of this. I have some ideas in mind myself but interested in your opinion. A few obvious changes id make would be of course to drop all Epic saves for the new and improved legendary saves. :-/lol anyway thanks
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 5, 2007 0:16:17 GMT
Okay well been thinking about doing a new version of this build given legendary save feats and such even before being prodded. When using white half dragon, the build must probably remain more or less as is as there aren't enough spare feats to allow for the inclusion of a great number of save feats. The saves on the white half dragon version are more than sufficient for most legendary areas and even the first few levels of the hells, however deeper down saves start becoming a problem. In any case a Kolyarut version is in order Salamander would also be helpful and allow one to take more WM levels for even higher AB. Starting stats for Kolyarut (str) -human for extra feat and skill points, starting class - (bard) STR 16 (21) DEX 8 (13) CON 16 (20) WIS 12 (10) INT 11 (13) CHA 11 (6 bard/12 RDD/22 WM) Level and Feat Progression1-Ba 01: Bard(1): Weapon Proficiency Martial, Luck of Heros 2-Ba 02: Bard(2) 3-Ba 03: Bard(3): Expertise 4-Ba 04: Bard(4) 5-Ba 05: Bard(5) 6-RDD 06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Weapon Focus: Battleaxe 7-RDD 07: Red Dragon Disciple(2) 8-RDD 08: Red Dragon Disciple(3) 9-RDD 09: Red Dragon Disciple(4): Toughness 10-RDD 10: Red Dragon Disciple(5) 11-RDD 11: Red Dragon Disciple(6) 12-RDD 12: Red Dragon Disciple(7): Whirlwind Attack 13-WM 13: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice: Battleaxe 14-WM 14: Weapon Master(2) 15-WM 15: Weapon Master(3): Armor Proficiency Heavy 16-WM 16: Weapon Master(4) 17-WM 17: Weapon Master(5) 18-WM 18: Weapon Master(6): Improved Critical: Battleaxe 19-WM 19: Weapon Master(7) 20-WM 20: Weapon Master(8) 21-RDD 21: Red Dragon Disciple(8): Blind Fight 22-RDD 22: Red Dragon Disciple(9) 23-RDD 23: Red Dragon Disciple(10) 24-WM 24: Weapon Master(9)Improved Critical: Warhammer 25-WM 25: Weapon Master(10) 26-WM 26: Weapon Master(11) 27-WM 27: Weapon Master(12): Weapon Focus: Warhammer 28-WM 28: Weapon Master(13):, Armor Skin 29-WM 29: Weapon Master(14) 30-WM 30: Weapon Master(15): Great Fortitude 31-WM 31: Weapon Master(16): Epic Weapon Focus: Battleaxe 32-WM 32: Weapon Master(17) 33-WM 33: Weapon Master(18): Iron Will 34-WM 34: Weapon Master(19): Weapon of Choice: Warhammer 35-WM 35: Weapon Master(20) 36-WM 36: Weapon Master(21): Lightning Reflexes 37-WM 37: Weapon Master(22): Epic Prowess 38-RDD 38: Red Dragon Disciple(11) 39-RDD 39: Red Dragon Disciple(12): Great Strength I 40-Ba 40: Bard(6) Legendary FeatsLegendary Luck Legendary Will Legendary Reflexes Legendary Fortitude Great Str 2-4 CommentsUnfortunately with this setup you'll only get to Grt Strength 4 in LL however the RDD bonuses to str and con somewhat make up for that failing. Lvl 60 saves should be in the mid to upper 60s all around which should be enough for even the deepest hells. AB will not be quite as good as a fighter WM and without the extra fighter feats you won't be able to afford combat feats like improved disarm and knockdown. However you'll be completely fire immune and have +4 ac over any WM and higher CON, 22 with RDD bonuses. You could try playing around with some of the save feats (especially reflex) or dropping one of the improved crits though it is setup primarily for survivability and versatility in weapons as is. Can of course choose weapons other than battleaxe and warhammer but warhammer is probably the best of the medium bludgeoning weapons and battleaxe is a decent slashing choice for damage types and high though less frequent crits. Scimitar or longsword would also be excellent choices. -S
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Post by phalthallus on Mar 8, 2007 21:15:04 GMT
Hey sabre - Any idea on the naked 40 stats (most importantly AB)? Trying to compare it to something else I made to see how much lower my AB is.
Thanks!
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 13, 2007 20:00:47 GMT
Finally went back and rebuilt in the tester. Naked, well with +12 str, AB would be 55 at 40 with weapon of choice, 68 with +13 GMW.
Unbuffed Stats @40 are as follows: STR 39 DEX 14 CON 14 WIS 10 INT 15 CHA 13
-S
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