5 bd 6 rg 29 AA vs 6 bd 5 mnk 29AA

[starlandra]

why go monk for archer instead of rogue? rolled two up and here are the differnces...
end stats at level 40 no gear for both builds
skipped iron skin, epic prowless, and all saves feats other than luck of heroes and great fort on both builds instead going a full great dex +10 by level 40 for testing purposes. So ac, ab, and saves could be slightly higher

Bard 6 Monk 5 Arcane Archer 29
AC 32
STR 10
DEX 38
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 06
CHR 14
Saves Fort 26 Reflex 40 Will 20
AB 59/54/49/44

Bard 5 Rogue 6 Arcane Archer 29
AC 32
STR 10
DEX 38
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 06
CHR 14
Saves Fort 26 Reflex 41 Will 18
AB 59/54/49/44

Bard song is same at level 5 or 6. Spells don't really matter execpt for keen which is nice to have to offer others.

Monk offers monk speed and +2 on will save. I guess the monks also offer wis ac bonus but as you can see my wis sucks so it would only be +4 with maxed wis bonus items on. (using dragonblooded still since it is my only elf/half elf subby I have still)

Rogue offers +1 reflex save (whoopee), 3d6 sneak attack and +24 skill points so I have able to max tumble umd spellcraft perform discipline and lore (just as the monk version) and still have 25 left over for pickpockets unlike the 1 point I had left over from monk.

so sneak attack and pp seems to be more worthwhile abilities than monk speed and +4 AC to me.

Am I missing something? what makes arcane flurry 1 wiz 10 monk 29 AA so much better (or at least very popular on the server ) I ask not to attack, but only so I can get a good real compairison of AA builds

[Bakchuda]

starlandra said:

so sneak attack and pp seems to be more worthwhile abilities than monk speed and +4 AC to me.

That's the crux right there, to me. If you are going for an AA build to max out the meat of what the AA does, then every bit of AC and any little "run away faster" bonus will outweigh "3d6 extra damage to some mobs when you are close enough" and pp. UMD would be a better argument for a rogue-based AA in my mind, and that's why there are some Dark Archer builds out there that work well.

[MurphysLawAgain]

Star, another difference you haven't mentioned is that the flurry gets improved evasion. Since they have insanely high reflex saves this really helps their survivability.

[Yomi]

Bard vs. Wiz, I think you should go 1 wiz and not 5-6 bard. Your bardsong will server no meaningful purpose other than to occasionally deny the whole party +6 ab to all attacks when you foolishly sing before a real bard. Wiz doesn't require an alignment change if you use monk as the third class. Wiz removes the alignment penalty if you're an elf. Wiz gets a pixie which is quite useful if you solo. Wiz can use Dachy staves for epic warding -- your UMD maxed out isn't enough. Wiz gets to use almost any wizard gear as well as many bard items. The bard spells you would get with 5-6 bard levels will have very short duration -- not much different than scrolls.

Monk vs. rogue is a tradeoff. Going 10 monk gives you 2 extra AC from the monk levels. Monk gives you a bonus to AC from wisdom which if you utilize it in your stats and gear can be a substantial boost (i.e. you can end up with 10 or more AC than a rogue build which is huge and pretty much seals the case for most people). With monk you will move noticibly faster and it is very addictive. Get FoM cast on you, run around for a while, then go play a regular character with haste to feel just how painfully slow it seems. Monk ought to give you higher will and fort saves. Monk 9 gives you improved evasion, though you can get it with 10 rogue levels. Rogue gets the extra sneak attack damage (very nice in low levels but +5d6 or less isn't that big in LLs). Rogue gets uncanny dodge. Rogue gets some more skill points. Both can PP pretty easily given robes, no shield, and high dex.

I think the 1 wiz 10 monk 29 AA combo is the best for general use. It has high damage output and good AC and fast movement. The rogue based ones will indeed do better in the 20s and 30s since that sneak attack damage will actually hit stuff for a very useful addition to the pitiful arrow damage you have available. But once you get a DB bow it won't be anywhere near the difference especially if you're just looking at 3d6 or so (much of which will get shrugged off by LL critters anyway).

As for your builds I'll agree with Ev that your charisma is way too high. You aren't a caster bard -- the spells you get with 5 caster levels just aren't worth it (get a wiz to make keen scrolls if that's important to you -- they'll work just as well as your spell at that caster level). Dragonblooded doesn't seem like a great choice for an AA -- do look into whether Aquatic Elf, Wild Elf, Averial (watching CON), Tiefling, or Wraith would be better choices for you. I didn't find I needed more than 10 int -- plenty for tumble, discipline, and hide (for self conceal). Those points into wisdom as well as equipment bonuses and the +1 per 5 monk levels would make a very noticible AC difference.

[starlandra]

I only put 1 point in chr to make it even lol the subby gives the rest

[Yomi]

starlandra said:

I only put 1 point in chr to make it even lol the subby gives the rest

?? Dragonblooded is a grand total of +2 to charisma. To get 14 as shown you'd have to add add 4 points.

Edit later tonight:

Aha. You're starting as a bard. This forces you to spend at least 3 points on charisma. You don't get the 11 for free -- it's the minimum needed to start as a bard. You spent 4 points on charisma for basically no benefit. Start as one of the other classes and add bard after level 1 or consider wiz (don't start as wiz though or it'll force your int higher than needed).

For instance, starting as a monk or rogue, with dragonblooded, you could have starting stats of

str 10, dex 18, con 16, int 12, wis 12, cha 10

which isn't that far off of aquatic elf (I'm not convinced dragonblooded is superior to the non-secret aquatic elf for this build, which is either a sad comment on the UR subrace or it's just wrong for the build). You could lower that int by two to raise str another 2 if that better met needs.

With one or more monk levels that means +7 to your AC just from wisdom, or +9 if you had a full 10 monk levels. Hmm, 115 AC or 124 AC...

[chainlink]

I'd say the biggest disadvantage of both the 5 bd 6 rg 29 AA & 6 bd 5 mnk 29AA builds are no self conceal as you need improved evasion to get this. Epic Dodge, Self Conceal, etc. effectively all add to your ac (indirectly) and as you're using a bow its no shield time which costs you even more ac.