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Post by the1kobra on Feb 25, 2009 16:14:47 GMT
None of the non pure rogue builds get universal sneak attack. By making a non pure rogue you trade off universal sneak attack for better AB, more attacks per round, and better saves etc. Basically in all pre-hell levels and pretty much every hells level pre-maladomini non pure builds are going to out damage a pure rogue. Once you introduce large amount of pit fiends the pure rogues more consistent damage starts winning on the logs. That's pretty much what I find is true about pure against non pure rogues, with one exception. (See Click). I had something in more detail about this phenomenon, which I haven't decided to post, but, I think this might be a good place to post it. Ultimately, I do find that a splash rogue beats a pure in everywhere except maladomini and nessus, and since this is a build designed for newcomers, I figured that I might as well make it optimal for 95% of the mod rather than three areas. Anyways, pre LL, this build has all the advantages. For one, you get shield proficiency free, pure rogues have to spend a feat on it, or find an item that has that property, restricting what they can wear and possibly requiring resources a person does not have. You get much more feat flexibility pre-epic, fighter adds 2 feats, and while you give up one that you would get at rogue 40, the paladin levels are a significant boost to your saves. Fear immunity as well, has become something of a required immunity for a person's setup, this build comes with it free. +2-8 to all saves however, is like saving yourself 4 feats that you would otherwise spend raising those saves. So essentially, a splash build is up by 6 feats over a non-splash build, that can mean a *lot*, 4 dex, some extra feats, something. I added exotic proficiency and rapid reload into this build, that's something a dedicated pure rogue would never be able to attain. I think I'll go on at length about the things that pure rogues get over splash rogues, namely skill mastery and ignoring sneak immunity. For the entirety of the pre-LL environment, the pure rogue's shining bonuses are entirely worthless, they don't get anything until rogue 40, while the splash rogue has an extra attack, and the extra attack easily out-damages the 2d6 he is missing, especially since on some things, you can pull out your crossbow for a nifty 7 attacks a round, a pure rogue probably won't be able to bag rapid reload, so is going to be stuck at 4. It's a pretty big difference, even 5 against 4 makes a pretty big difference. Even into pre-hells legendary level areas, the penetrate sneak immunity doesn't come close to the benefits that the splash rogue gets. In fact, last time I checked, very few things in LL areas have sneak immunity, I don't think I'm allowed to go in at length, but suffice it to say, very few things have it. Even in rona and elysium, two areas which would mess this character's alignment up, (alternatively, you could find a certain mint chocolate milkshake to give you free cleave and you could go blackguard, costs you fear immunity though.), they don't have a lot of sneak immune targets either, notwithstanding bosses and the like. Some of the newer areas have more sneak-immune targets, but none like Nessus where 90% of your targets are sneak attack immune. And skill mastery? It's still entirely worthless pre-hells, actually, it's bonuses pretty much only apply in the hells, and is only useful in the deep layers at that. In the upper layers you can get a greater restore to help you with open lock and search checks and I only find this character at risk of failing discipline checks in Nessus. What it comes down to simply, is that a pure rogue is pretty much designed to be a deep hell runner, which wasn't my intention with this build. I wanted the whole path along to be as smooth as possible, yes this character will start running into problems in Maladomini, (then again, most low-strength dexers do), but it's going to be superior in the pre-hells environment, and even some of the upper hells layers where there aren't as many (albeit still a good number) of sneak immune targets. Just so everyone knows, Kobolds are known carriers of rabies..... (HAHA, sry Kobra I couldn't resist....) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RabiesRabies only affects mammals, so ha!
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Post by tyranlthixis on May 19, 2009 8:59:52 GMT
I think this is the best rogue build for non deep hell runs. The only thing that is keeping it out of the top prize rung is the formating. Its better than when you first posted it a long time ago , but take a look at some of the others....its definitely hard to read. I think the pictures were a good idea. Tyranlthixis
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Post by Torin on May 19, 2009 12:31:13 GMT
I think, the Cuddly Little Scoundrel is one of the best builds on the server. It has some much and the 2 x 2 splash is very good: - 2 Paladin for saves, fear immunity - 2 Fighter for 2 extra feats - All 4 for +1 Attack, +1 AB. And also Shield Prof. for free. - Full Rogue - Extraordinary defense: High AC as a dexer, conceal 66% (if I'm right) that can not be dispelled, 43% effectively against mobs with Blind Fight , and finally Epic Dodge. Even new players with not so good gear should be well protected and have their fun of it. - Even AB is not that bad: Dexer, oportunist, small. - Good saves - Tons of skillpoints. That's very good to learn much of the HG specific modifications of the skills.
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Post by jonuhey on Apr 14, 2010 23:56:17 GMT
Im creating a HC toon based on this. Just a few notes: * Even though you calculate your AB using the correct feats modifier, you say that epic prowess grants +2 to AB, and Legendary weapon focus +3. The first grants +1, and legendary feat only increases by 3 if you have epic prowess, to a total of +4. I know you know this, just to clarify to new players. ** Opportunist will only add +2 pre-demi/arti, so you can increase inteligence by 2 during level up and that will give you 1 more skill and 1 more AB, decreasing only 1 AC, it will also make int checks just a little easier. I'll do that, cuz I need some points in appraise for my first HC, cuz I dont have any money to buy anything for now. ** You also should consider spending some points in concentration, +23 during the last paladin level will do. Most checks tops at 60 DC, and this is such an easy skill to max with gear and song. This is mostly for harder areas like hells with paragons and abyss/ely, I probably will pass this on my HC.
Off-topic: where do you find the kobold portraits? I looked everywhere to find one in my list but couldnt find any, even though I can see your portrait in game. Is it some hack file like the one to make all voices in the game available? Or did I just overlooked it in my almost hundred portraits (even though I spent about 10 minutes searching ><). I used the default acid dagger for mine, kinda lame ><
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Post by the1kobra on Apr 16, 2010 11:52:31 GMT
I updated the description on Epic Prowess.
I suppose you could make that stat shift, also keep in mind that you may have to shuffle feats around to get epic dodge and/or self concealment. It also hurts a bit pre-LL, since you get the 3rd AB at rogue level 39, and does cost an AC except late-game with light armor. Then again, the extra skill *is* nice.
I wouldn't take this to ely, the align change, combined with aggressive STR checks wouldn't make this a great character there. (Might deal better damage there with a crossbow). However, I suppose there are other places where Conc is nice, Dulv, Abo, and Malbolge come to mind. This adjustment would synergize well with the above edit.
As for the portraits, if I recall, there's an override which allows you to access any of the in-game portraits, such as the dragons, kobolds... etc. I've been using that. Alas, my artistic skills are not sufficient to create one myself yet :/.
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Post by jonuhey on Apr 17, 2010 14:06:40 GMT
This is a test I did, starting with base 16 int and 14 dex. Kinda lame I didnt start like this in my HC... will lose about 12 skills points >< Also went with GWFocus for +1 ab instead of Rapid shot, was thinking about changing Toughness for Power critical, but didnt, as I need those 60 HP :X
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Apr 17 10:50:58] [Server] You have taken the following levels: 1 Rogue - Bullheaded - Sneak Attack (+1d6) - Strong Soul
2 Paladin
3 Fighter - Weapon Finesse - Weapon Proficiency (exotic)
4 Rogue (Dexterity +1) - Evasion
5 Rogue - Sneak Attack (+2d6) - Uncanny Dodge I
6 Rogue - Blind-Fight
7 Fighter - Weapon Focus (kukri)
8 Rogue (Dexterity +1) - Sneak Attack (+3d6)
9 Rogue - Iron Will - Uncanny Dodge II
10 Rogue - Sneak Attack (+4d6)
11 Rogue
12 Rogue (Dexterity +1) - Improved Critical (kukri) - Sneak Attack (+5d6)
13 Rogue - Improved Evasion
14 Rogue - Sneak Attack (+6d6) - Uncanny Dodge III
15 Rogue - Greater Weapon Focus (kukri)
16 Rogue (Dexterity +1) - Defensive Roll - Sneak Attack (+7d6)
17 Rogue - Uncanny Dodge IV
18 Rogue - Sneak Attack (+8d6) - Toughness
19 Rogue - Crippling Strike
20 Paladin (Dexterity +1) Concentration + 23, Discipline +23
21 Rogue - Epic Character - Great Dexterity I - Sneak Attack (+9d6) - Uncanny Dodge V
22 Rogue
23 Rogue - Opportunist - Sneak Attack (+10d6)
24 Rogue (Dexterity +1) - Great Dexterity II - Uncanny Dodge VI+
25 Rogue - Epic Rogue - Sneak Attack (+11d6)
26 Rogue
27 Rogue - Great Dexterity III - Sneak Attack (+12d6)
28 Rogue (Dexterity +1) Disable Trap +30, Hide +30, Listen +30, Parry +30, Pick Pocket +30, Search +28, Use Magic Device +30, Tumble +30 - Epic Skill Focus (Disable Trap)
29 Rogue - Sneak Attack (+13d6)
30 Rogue - Great Dexterity IV
31 Rogue - Sneak Attack (+14d6)
32 Rogue (Dexterity +1) - Epic Skill Focus (Search)
33 Rogue - Epic Weapon Focus (kukri) - Sneak Attack (+15d6)
34 Rogue
35 Rogue - Sneak Attack (+16d6)
36 Rogue (Dexterity +1) - Epic Prowess - Epic Dodge
37 Rogue - Sneak Attack (+17d6)
38 Rogue
39 Rogue - Armor Skin - Sneak Attack (+18d6)
40 Rogue (Dexterity +1) Disable Trap +13, Hide +13, Listen +13, Open Lock +43, Parry +13, Pick Pocket +13, Search +13, Use Magic Device +13, Appraise +21, Tumble +13 - Self-Concealment I
Legendary feats - LSA discipline - Self Conc II-V - Leg weapon focus - Leg Soul
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