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Post by Acaos on Jan 18, 2009 8:01:23 GMT
I thought we wanted more bards. Actually, the goal is to reduce the necessity of a party waiting on a single class, which we're doing through multiple avenues, which include reducing the power of bards so they're no longer so overpoweringly necessary and adding additional sources of the benefits they can give a party which can be combined to cover the bard's roles as needed. Acaos
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 18, 2009 8:03:43 GMT
If you can't handle a point buy system, you're going to run into trouble waaaaaay before class selection - like when you purchase your starting abilities. There'll be a very similar convo. There will also be a default song configuration. Funky
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Post by Trazik on Jan 18, 2009 8:43:24 GMT
Well, my initial thoughts are .... I agree with Strikefighter. This looks like a bit of a headache for anyone who chooses to play a bard in the new system. I hope this means that there will be either: - a lot of dev resource invested in minor tweaks to many hell and post-hell mobs (does not seem likely, tbh); or - sufficient boosts to other classes to make up the difference (making the net change equal to zero, rather than negative)
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Post by Egg on Jan 18, 2009 9:19:43 GMT
When I first read it (about 40mins ago) I felt the same. But now I have read it over a few times, I really can see how exciting this is going to be. Will make for some interesting builds that's for sure. Any clue as to when the changes will appear? My bards due for reincarnation in 16 days
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Post by aeortar on Jan 18, 2009 9:35:27 GMT
Presumably to avoid 'headache' issues, a simpler alternative could be offered to those who don't want to spend the time working out how to spend each point - i.e. allow people to pick 3 specialised areas[60], and 2 generalist areas[30], and have the points spent automatically (while still allowing those who want to to spend the points manually).
IMO it's a good thing if the changes combined help reduce the dependence on a single class (which they look like they ought to), and also create a bit of variety (which again they ought to), and even create a slight use for more than 1 bard on a run.
Just to throw another possible idea in, with PM curse what about allowing PMs to increase the CL of the curse by 5 if they take a legendary feat? The feat itself would need to have a prerequisite (e.g. Artist), and even then might be a bit too much of a boost for 2 feats (although PMs don't exactly have lots of feats to spare so it may be enough). It'd mean PMs could become slightly more effective cursers at the cost of other areas, but equally they would already be able to act as a fairly weak bard replacement with the proposed changes. Edit: just to tweak this suggestion, maybe have artist give +1 cl, then a legendary feat that can be taken up to 2 times (or even more than 2?) which gives +2 levels per feat.
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Post by Egg on Jan 18, 2009 9:57:22 GMT
Presumably to avoid 'headache' issues, a simpler alternative could be offered to those who don't want to spend the time working out how to spend each point There will also be a default song configuration. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 18, 2009 10:36:31 GMT
Be aware, though, the default song configuration will probably just be a simply even allotment - which will result in a pure 60 getting only 51 levels in each, before feats, or a (51/60 = 85%) 15% drop in power (and that isn't counting caster bard soak or temp hp/damage, which would make that more like a 10% drop, or less). Multiple bards will offset that, and could in fact slightly surpass what is currently possible. With that, and the item changes, in mind, there will certainly NOT be a decrease in monster power.
Funky
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Post by jonuhey on Jan 18, 2009 12:16:56 GMT
I found the changes rather cool, and it will be nice to spend these points around. A bit challenging tho, but funny. A few questions: * What is lyric channeling you mentioned? (or did I skip its description after reading it twice.... =p) * Would a 30Bard/5HS/5PDK be able to get a lv 63 song in at least one "feature"? * A warchanter with odd lvs of DD will have their 0,5 points rounded to 0 or 1? (...)Multiple bards will offset that(...) This is a bit utopic too much =P But it made me think about one thing, imagine that with 2 bards in the party we decide to split the focus, let me say bard A gets full song in AB and AC, and the other takes full song in the others. Then after the run the party decide to continue on to the next hell lv but one of the bards cant go. The bard that modified his points distribution before the first run and wants to go to the next run will be screwed cuz he wouldnt be able to change his points again and his song/curse will be awfull for the party overall. My idea: After using a ring recharger with +12 charges, the bard regain the ability to change their points distribution. Or maybe other thing... consumable? It seems warchanters will have a bit more love from parties, also. Jonuhey
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Post by kaezar on Jan 18, 2009 15:19:23 GMT
Liric Channeling and SSF Enchantment /Illusion are the most exciting changes to bard imo.
Lirc channeling means the bard will be able to channel like sorcerers, only using songs instead of spell slots. They channel their song "power" into their spells. Caster Bards will finally able to get a decent DC for theirs spells.
SSF Enchantment and Illusion is the same wizards get by specialization on these schools, but will cost feats to bards.
They will have to be pure bards to get that, of course
Take care Kaezar
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Post by the1kobra on Jan 18, 2009 15:26:28 GMT
Song and cursesong are in different pools? Does this mean that one could make their bard song have maxed AC, AB, and Damage, while their cursesong has maximized AC, saves, and skill? Also, about the point buy system, can you exceed your level with this? For example, can a bard with 35 bard levels and artist allocate points to get a level 60 AC buff/debuff on his song?, and simply have less points than one with 38 bard levels?
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Post by wnxstrikefighter on Jan 18, 2009 15:50:47 GMT
I thought we wanted more bards. Actually, the goal is to reduce the necessity of a party waiting on a single class, which we're doing through multiple avenues, which include reducing the power of bards so they're no longer so overpoweringly necessary and adding additional sources of the benefits they can give a party which can be combined to cover the bard's roles as needed. Acaos I see your intent and I think it is a great idea. I'm concerned about the inevitable scenario where a bard will have to have his song set-up a certain way for certain areas. This adds another level of complexity to an already complex class. As stated above there are a number of people who won't play bard because it isn't fun to them. Are these changes going to help that scenario or make it even less fun because now you have to worry about your song being set up correctly?
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Post by nataani on Jan 18, 2009 15:56:01 GMT
A few questions-
1) Assuming I understand the changes correctly, In the short to medium term, how will other classes be enhanced to counteract the decrease in power bards will get? Until people figure out how to effectively use this new system I foresee a significant decrease in the powers of parties, which, in the more difficult areas of the module would make things drastically harder.
2) How will this affect newly reincarnated bards, will they be able to freshly reincarnate once the changes come in or will there be another system?
3) Will this mean that warchanters can get a decent curse/bardsong? Previously their song power was significantly reduced due to the bard song level being bard lvl + 1/2 DD level.
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Post by redbeard on Jan 18, 2009 16:20:47 GMT
But it made me think about one thing, imagine that with 2 bards in the party we decide to split the focus, let me say bard A gets full song in AB and AC, and the other takes full song in the others. Then after the run the party decide to continue on to the next hell lv but one of the bards cant go. The bard that modified his points distribution before the first run and wants to go to the next run will be screwed cuz he wouldnt be able to change his points again and his song/curse will be awfull for the party overall. It sounds like the Legendary Artist feat will allow you to set up a default "I'm the only bard" song and use a different slot to customize for the special run.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 18, 2009 17:55:50 GMT
* What is lyric channeling you mentioned? (or did I skip its description after reading it twice.... =p) Bascially what channeling is to sorcs, but it'll use song uses. It's intended to help caster bards, as is the ability to purchase SSF feats in Ench and Illus. 30 bard, assuming they have 20 legendary levels, would be able to hit level 63 song only if they had both Artist and Legendary Artist Feats, since they have only 50 levels in the class and would otherwise max out at level 60. Such a bard would have 500 points to spend, which means they could spend 340 of them to max out 2 features, and would have enough left to get level 58 (61 after feats) in a third, if they wanted to do that instead of spreading more evenly. NWN integers always rounds down, even at .9999999. Think of it as a remainder system. 9/5 = 1 rem 4, or 1, not 1.8, and not 2. It will be at 75%, at worst, of what a present bards is, which is part of the point. Multiple bards are just a way to alleviate that, and allowing bard synergy required either some kind of drop, which fit our other designs, or a flat out power increase, which didn't. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 18, 2009 18:00:49 GMT
Song and cursesong are in different pools? Does this mean that one could make their bard song have maxed AC, AB, and Damage, while their cursesong has maximized AC, saves, and skill? Yes. Yes, this is covered in the post. No, unless he has at least 15 legendary levels, or 12 LL and both feats, or 13 LL and Artist, or 14 LL and Leg Artist (not decided if Artist will be a prereq for this, but it probably will). You can exceed your level by up to 10 in each feature area, before accounting for Artist and Legendary Artist. Funky
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