Trident

[crimsonbinome22]

Spears

[johannhowitzer]

Spears and tridents do look like the only option now for Wemic STR rangers who want to dual and get decent physical damage. However, with the proposed edits, those two weapons will be on par with mauls - especially once all the rebalancing has been done for slash-pierce-bludg types. Plus, if you pick spears, you can use that oh-so-nifty Hell spear with full AB!

EDIT: It's worth noting, of course, that with spears you will retain full STR bonus to damage while losing 2 from your AB. Almost forgot about that.

[Avissar]

All right, I've stared at that chart for quite some time now trying to figure out what it all means!

Are there changes to short swords coming up?

If I'm reading it correctly, (which I'm probably not) it appears like the short sword's critical threat range will be going from 19-20 to only 20.

I'm so confused, can someone spread a little illumination on this for me?

Thanks in advance

[tyranlthixis]

Well I'm not sure if you have the same chart I do but it looks like short swords are also getting moved to slash/pierce status. Which means you would do which ever damage type the monster was most vulnerable to. Not too shabby against critical hit immune monsters vs something like light mace which has a better crit range for non crit immnes but is less flexible.

Tyran

[xarkon]

Jan 27, 2009 5:41:23 GMT FunkySwerve said:

There's a whole new slate of weapon edits just waiting on needed engine hacks:

spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pkPtUjd4yKNxPFUqYFmWsMQ

Shouldn't be too long, now.

Funky

Great idea to add iteration 4,6,7 weapon concept!

I’m having trouble figuring out how you got the iteration bonus numbers in the table though. It seems to overestimate the advantage of lower iteration numbers.

Here’s my calculation:

For a single attack the damage probability works out to be
Phit * [ Pcrit * (CritMult – 1) + 1 ].

Where Phit is probability of a hit and Pcrit is probability of rolling in crit range (e.g. 17-20 has probability of 20%).

Looks like the first table computes the part in brackets, Spot checking, I get the same results.

EDIT: thinking about this a bit more, PCrit can't be any larger than Phit, e.g. if your crit range is 11-20, but you only hit on a roll of 15 and up, your effective crit range is reduced to 15-20.

But for the iteration bonus, which is used to compute the 2nd table, seems as though that part depends not only on Phit but also on your level 20 BAB (e.g. BAB 20 with iteration 6 weapon gives 4 attacks but BAB 19 allows only 3).

Seems to me that to get an accurate damage table, you need to compute the average Phit per round and multiply this times the quantity in brackets (i.e. from the first table).

If you compute average hits per round, here’s an example:

Say based on attacker AB, opponent AC you have 50% chance to hit (i.e. on highest attack).

For a BAB 20 at level 20 char:

Iteration 5 weapon: attack sequence is 20, 15, 10, 5, 20 (haste), so probability of hit per round is 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.5 = 1.35 hits per round

Iteration 4 weapon: attack sequence is 20, 16, 12, 8, 4, 20 (haste), so probability of hit per round is 0.5 + 0.3 + 0.1 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.5 = 1.5 hits per round

Iteration 6 weapon, attack sequence is 20, 14, 8, 2, 20 (haste), so probability of hit per round is 0.5+ 0.2+0.05+ 0.05+ 0.5 = 1.3

So the iteration 4 weapon gives you 1.5/1.35 = 1.11, an 11% advantage, not a 25% advantage as shown in table.

The iteration 6 weapon gives you a 1.3/1.35 = 0.96, 4% disadvantage, not a 7.5% disadvantage as shown in table.

The only situation I can see where you can get as large as a 25% advantage is if you simply count number of attacks without the haste attack, e.g. 4 attacks for iteration 5 weapon and 5 attacks for iteration 4 (but only if you have 20 BAB at level 20). And this situation only occurs if all your attacks hit (except on 1), or all miss (except on roll of 20).

[tyranlthixis]

The lower iteration weapons would benefit something with a lower starting AB where as the larger iterations could only be fully used by something with obscenely high AB like a weapon master. The more powerful the weapon, the harder it is to wield it well.

Lets say the bottom number you are aiming for is 85 AB. If you have an iteration of 7 (large pick) you would need....a 106 AB character to fully use that weapon. Every point of iteration ups the top AB requirement on the weapon by one on every iteration required.

Looking at that table I know my poor battle cleric is probably going to be a morning star user once everything is said and done. On the other hand my barbarian is a double axe user without dev crit. With an increased iteration I'm half tempted to keep his strength as is and not invest strength into dev/oc. A loss of a few AB can cost you under the new system an attack not landing per round. The choices are far less clear cut now. Which means more diverse builds.

You should also keep in mind that your size relative to the weapon you are using does matter. A bastard sword is a size smaller for a large character like a wemic ranger. The wemic wouldn't lose as much AB on its dualing pens but it will experience a damage cut for using a small weapon. So, the choices of what weapon to use are far more complicated now.

Tyran

[FunkySwerve]

Mar 8, 2009 18:32:00 GMT xarkon said:

I’m having trouble figuring out how you got the iteration bonus numbers in the table though. It seems to overestimate the advantage of lower iteration numbers.

We guestimated (though it was an educated guestimate). Any single calculation requires too many assumptions to produce anything concrete, which is of course why we have playtest. Ty pretty much nailed the reasoning, though. Assuming a 50% chance to hit on the first swing can give you one data point, but we need to consider all possible data when figuring valuations, so that best-case uses are covered (because once found, those are the ones that matter, because those are the ones that will be used on an action server). As should be clear from the crit range and multiplier numbers, different weapon types will now benefit different types of characters differently. Rapier, for example, will be much more of a niche weapon than it is now. The same is true of iterations, though in their case the key isssue is ab rather than crit improving feats. In order to fully flesh out the graph, it'd have to be three dimensional, to handle varying abs, and the value of changed iterations would vary depending on ab, on the z axis. Because working all that would be very complex, and because there's already a very rough correlation between ab and crit-enhancing feats (with the WM as the paragon example, and with the assumption that builds that seek to maximize ab are trying to maximize damage, and will take more crit-enhancing feats like OC and DC when they are able - note that OC and DC will be more broadly available on gear soon, as well), we simply relied on a flat scaling which we judged to roughly cover the best-use scenarios.

Funky

[drunkenboaster]

I would like to suggest that the trident be changed to maybe a iteration 4 crit range 20 multiplier x2. Main reason is because it is currently the same as a spear, the other reason is it would give shifters who utilise sahuagin shape to have an extra attack without splashing full bab classes pre-epic.

[FunkySwerve]

Good suggestion, especially since spear is a basic, not a martial weap, and is technically better, since it can be dualed - unless tridents can be dualed? Never tried. I'll take it up with the team.

Thanks,
Funky

[KnightErrant]

You can dual wield Tridents.....Wemic actually looks pretty cool with them IMHO :-)

KE.

[xarkon]

Tyran and Funky, thanks for the cogent replies. The DM team has done a great job balancing the game so far, and as you say there are many, many other factors to consider, so in the end, game testing will tell.

But…I still couldn’t resist trying to calculate at least a little more accurate table, taking into account different levels of AC-AB, and lev 20 BAB, and computing on a per round basis. Finally found some time to do this with a few visual basic modules in excel.

Net is that mostly things look pretty much right (assuming level20 BAB = 20), except I think iteration 4 weapons actually do less damage than your table shows, over a range of AC-AB and across the various categories (~4% for AC-AB = -20 (all hit case) and ~9% for AC=AB).

This also supports my feeling that Kukri is a bit nerfed, since it's already low inyour chart, especially for an exotic weapon (how about restoring to 2 crit mult or adding 2nd damage type?).

Also, the iteration 3 weapons do a little more damage at very high AB than you’ve got but also deteriorate more rapidly for lower AB.

I can post the results, just need to understand the double weapons better to complete that section. Are you including the 2 extra bonus attacks over and above the two off-handed? (and what relative AB do those hit with). Also what happens if a large character wields a double weapon, is it still iteration 3 (or 4 for double ax)?

Xarkon

[FunkySwerve]

Mar 15, 2009 15:34:30 GMT xarkon said:

I can post the results, just need to understand the double weapons better to complete that section. Are you including the 2 extra bonus attacks over and above the two off-handed? (and what relative AB do those hit with). Also what happens if a large character wields a double weapon, is it still iteration 3 (or 4 for double ax)?

Yes. If I remember the newest handling of added attacks correctly, then they are added an iteration down for each added attack - for 6 onhand, that would be 0, -5, -10, -15, -20, -25. Size doesn't effect iteration. The offhands iterate from the top, starting at -0.

Net is that mostly things look pretty much right (assuming level20 BAB = 20), except I think iteration 4 weapons actually do less damage than your table shows, over a range of AC-AB and across the various categories (~4% for AC-AB = -20 (all hit case) and ~9% for AC=AB).

AC is of course another of the factors I was talking about. Neither of those cases are very realistic, though, except for the highest-ab builds. I would use 105 ac as a baseline number - almost fully cursed pit fiend. Of course, most mobs aren't pit fiends, and most bosses are higher ac than pit fiends - in hells areas, anyway.

Also, the iteration 3 weapons do a little more damage at very high AB than you’ve got but also deteriorate more rapidly for lower AB.

Iteration 3 weapons deteriorate more slowly than higher iterations - unless you mean something completely different than what I think. Just so we're clear, the iteration number is the amount each swing subtracts from the attack. The lower the iteration, the more swings you get, at higher abs. I don't remember how acaos is setting this up - it's all his work, in engine hacks, here, but I think an iteration 3 will max out at 7 attacks (0, -3, -6,-9,-12,-15,-18), while an iteration 7 pick will only get 3 (0, -7, -14). The cutoff number is (if I remember rightly) 20.

Funky

[xarkon]

I tried a char in the test chamber and the two bonus attacks for double weapon are actually added at full AB and full AB less one iteration. Furthermore they ignore two weapon penalty (as happens with haste attack as well for dualers).

On which AC-AB to look at, I'll post a few cases of various AC-AB's. Given that highest AB's tend to be around 105 (yes?), and many are 90's, I'll cover (-10) to 15. The -10 would correspond to uber char fighting lower level monsters. The 15 to an AB 90 char fighting the cursed Pit Fiend (105AC as you said).

Iteration 3 weapons deteriorate more slowly than higher iterations - unless you mean something completely different than what I think. Just so we're clear, the iteration number is the amount each swing subtracts from the attack. The lower the iteration, the more swings you get, at higher abs. I don't remember how acaos is setting this up - it's all his work, in engine hacks, here, but I think an iteration 3 will max out at 7 attacks (0, -3, -6,-9,-12,-15,-18), while an iteration 7 pick will only get 3 (0, -7, -14). The cutoff number is (if I remember rightly) 20.

Funky

Yep, am talking about iterations, same as you are, but I think I disagree with Tyran's logic on this. If a lower AB char cannot hit on his third swing of an iteration 7 weapon, will also not hit on his last 2 or 3 attacks of an iteration 3 weapon.

I suppose it depends on exactly which case you look at (WM5, DC etc), but here's one example where going from -10 to 15 drops the damage on iteration 3 weapon more than on an iteration 7 weapon.


Interation comparison vs AC-AB (level20BAB=20), includes haste attk.
spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pOivG2oeB17DxrutLp_UrUw

see next post for details.

Xarkon

[xarkon]

Here's a few tables I calculated using excel and the functions listed below. (If you want to try this at home, from excel menu Tools -> Macros -> Visual Basic, then from Visual Basic menu, Insert-> Module,
and cut and paste these in, one per module. Then use just like a function in spreadsheet. You may need to set security to low to let them run).

All are for Lev20BAB = 20 (same for 19), which gives 7,5,4,4,3 attacks for iteration 3,4,5,6,7 weapons respectively. Also included the extra haste attack. Note that these are per round damage, and so not directly comparible to Funky's spread sheet (which is more of an average per attack).

In the spreadsheets below the Newcalc sheet has the actual per round values. To see how they compared to Funky's table I took the ratio of New/Funky, normalized to assassin dagger base (so could compare round to avg attack), then subtracted 1. Shown on the Ratio sheet. So Ratio shows a negative percent if the new calculation is less than Funky's, and is positive if new calculation is greater than Funky's.

Note that there's an extra parameter in the TwoHanded and DoubleWeapon functions to account for dualing penalty, should be either 2 or 4 to account for penalty.

One last comment, now that I have the double weapons in they seem really over the top with 12 attacks and some reasonble crit range and multipliers.



AC-AB = 15
spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pOivG2oeB17CkokbaU3VFeQ

AC-AB = 10
spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pOivG2oeB17COWcqfMsJ_ag

AC-AB = 0
spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pOivG2oeB17AieVXAu9EDFw

AC-AB = -10
spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pOivG2oeB17BOJzd1R00PbA

Here's the functions, hopefully no mistakes, but let me know if you see anything amiss.


Function HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta)
' ABdelta is AC-AB value
' compute Pcrit
CritRange = 21 - Range
Pcrit = CritRange / 20#
' compute Phit
tempmax = Application.WorksheetFunction.Max((20 - ABdelta) / 20#, 0.05)
PHit = Application.WorksheetFunction.Min(tempmax, 0.95)
' adjusted Pcrit, Pcrit cannot exceed Phit
Pcritadj = Application.WorksheetFunction.Min(PHit, Pcrit)
' compute damage
HitDamage = PHit * (Pcritadj * (CritMult - 1#) + 1#)
End Function
__________________________________________

Function OneHanded(iteration, Range, CritMult, ABdelta, Lev20BAB)
' haste attack
Temp1 = HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta)
' main attacks
temp2 = 0
For I = Lev20BAB To 1 Step -iteration
temp2 = temp2 + HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta + Lev20BAB - I)
Next I

OneHanded = Temp1 + temp2
End Function

____________________________________________________

Function DoubleWeap(iteration, Range, CritMult, ABdelta0, twoadj, Lev20BAB)
' twoadj to add twohanded penalty, either 2 or 4
ABdelta = ABdelta0 + twoadj
' haste attack, has no twohanded penalty
Temp1 = HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta0)
' main attacks
temp2 = 0
For I = Lev20BAB To 1 Step -iteration
ABmin = ABdelta + Lev20BAB - I
temp2 = temp2 + HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta + Lev20BAB - I)
Next I
' off-hand attack
temp3 = HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta) + HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta + iteration)
' The Bonus attacks start at highest AB, no twohanded penalty
temp4 = HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta0) + HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta0 + iteration)
DoubleWeap = Temp1 + temp2 + temp3 + temp4
End Function

___________________________________________________

Function TwoWeapon(iteration, Range, CritMult, ABdelta0, twoadj, Lev20BAB)
' twoadj to add twohanded penalty, either 2 or 4
ABdelta = ABdelta0 + twoadj
' haste attack, has no twohanded penalty
Temp1 = HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta0)
' main attacks
temp2 = 0
For I = Lev20BAB To 1 Step -iteration
temp2 = temp2 + HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta + Lev20BAB - I)
Next I
' off-hand attack
temp3 = HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta) + HitDamage(CritMult, Range, ABdelta + iteration)

TwoWeapon = Temp1 + temp2 + temp3
End Function

Edit: Renamed above TwoWeapon, it's for duel wielding, dont know what I was thinkin' to name it TwoHanded.

[FunkySwerve]

Mar 16, 2009 2:40:20 GMT xarkon said:

Note that these are per round damage, and so not directly comparible to Funky's spread sheet (which is more of an average per attack).

The numbers in the ss I linked just show the changes in base damage output caused by crits at various mults and ranges, with no crits 5 iteration as the baseline (100%) - though we also factored in dual damage types. They aren't average per attack, and I can't make heads or tails of your figures.

Funky