Post by Yomi on Apr 14, 2008 1:46:16 GMT
I've seen very few threaders recently, and have been having lots of fun and success with this one (5x demi). I used a lot of inspiration from Cath's Pants threader as well as Balduvard's original Lifethreshers build. I made a Str LT and got him tagged through Dis but really think Dex / Hybrid is a better choice.
Race: Human Kolyarut (BUR subrace)
STR 14 -> 19
DEX 14 -> 19
CON 14 -> 18
WIS 14 -> 12
INT 14 -> 16
CHA 8 -> 6
Levels 1-10 Cleric, 11-20 WM, 21-30 Cleric, 31-40 WM.
Stats: All in DEX except 16 and 20 where you put points into Wisdom.
Feats from Kolyarut: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Feats:
1: Blooded, Bullheaded, Domain Death, Domain Healing
3: WF Sickle
6: Expertise
9: Whirlwind Attack
11: Weapon of Choice: Sickle
12: Weapon Finesse
15: Blind Fight
18: Great Fortitude
21: Great WIS 1
24: Great Wis 2
27: Great Wis 3
30: Great Wis 4
33: Great Wis 5, Armor Skin
36: Great Wis 6, EWF: Sickle
39: ESF: Heal, Epic Prowess
Level 40 unmodified stats:
STR 19
DEX 27
CON 18
WIS 20
INT 16
CHA 6
41 read Enchant Book
LL feats:
LSA Tumble
LSA Discipline
LSF Heal
LWF Sickle
LSF Enchant (for +14 GMW)
Epic Will
Legendary Fort
In LL's, put 5 points in DEX, then 5 in STR. If you prefer a little better AC/AB when starting you can choose 9 DEX and 1 STR then reincarnate with the higher STR after demi or double demi. With the 5/5 route you will end double demi with 48 DEX and 40 STR, which will max out your AC using base 3 light armor and make you much harder to KD.
Skills pre-LL:
Intimidate - 4 points at level 9 or so (required for WM)
Heal - Max at all levels (will end with 43)
Discipline - Max on all WM levels (will end at 43)
Concentration - Put about 20 points in this
Skills in LL:
Heal - Max
Tumble - Max through level 57 after taking LSA Tumble
Discipline - Max after taking LSA Discipline
Parry - Max
Craft Armor - Max
Craft Weapon - anything left over
Final skills at level 60:
AB pre-demi is 89 after buffs which isn't stellar but it hits most things.
The equipment I wore for most of my trip through Hells was:
- DB Sickle / Dis Sickle
- UR Ricorin Studs armor
- UR Pinwheel Shield (for poison and fear immune)
- UR Veil of Kings helm
- UR cleric belt or Tia cleric belt
- BUR Fiendish Fingers
- Tia cloak, Tia boots, Tia amulet
- Breach ring + appropriate UR ring for the level
The choices above are definitely non-optimal by today's standard other than the Tia items (which I put in gradually as I acquired them), but it shows you don't need the best of everything. Better armor choices include Swamp Devil Hide and Nature's Embanking Palisade.
What my demi character now wears is:
- Dis Sickle
- Swamp Devil Hide
- Helm of Zeal
- Gleaming Glint UR shield
- Gauntlets of Transposed Energy
- Tia belt
- Tia amulet
- Tia cloak
- Styxwalkers (Asmo boots)
- Quaternery Exotica (breach + 25% to all exotics)
- Band of Anubis or appropriate other ring
Be sure to take advantage of the 5 epic wardings on the asmo boots. Other gear choices are possible, just make sure you get poison and fear immunity in addition to the normal stuff.
Some considerations:
The damage output is the most noticeable thing about playing this character -- you can close to double the total output of the best tanks on most Hells runs, and quadruple or more that of average tanks. However it's area damage rather than focused damage, and you're not going to be at the top of kills. Something a little less noticeable but I think a big help for parties is the healing. If you can stay in range of the tanks, the healing you give them helps keep people alive as well as in action rather than healing. It can also be a big plus for anyone KD'd and being beaten on near you.
Edit: with the latest Hells change (July 2009), damage has gone down a huge amount -- about half what it used to be. You're still quite useful and will be in the high end of tanks even if not up with the top end tanks, and it will be great on other runs. Elysium is a fantastic run for a threader.
You have a few things which are important to avoid when possible. Getting disarmed or your sickle slagged will stop your threading. Carry spare sickles. Fortunately this is very uncommon (it has only happened to me on the final Nessus map). Getting stunned, paralyzed, or stoned will stop your threading -- fortunately your high AC and saves will make this fairly rare, but watch out for it. Getting Amnesiad is a disaster as you're now just a lackluster dexer -- this happened very rarely to me but it's frustrating when it does. Lastly, getting KD'd stops threading and my toon got very very unhappy when things started beating on her at that point. A good bard with UUU can keep this from happening, and with a high STR you'll have a half-decent chance of avoiding it even without. This is a big reason I bumped up the str to 42 -- it means I can tank regular Malebranches and Pit Fiends without worries, and have a darn good chance against paragons. As a later post shows, the stats allow one to do very well against most checks you'll encounter.
Takasi at double demi with STR artifact Buffed with song, no girding, using Asmo art AC: 143 (song,girding,BURs+art chosen for AC) AC: 139 (song,girding,BURs+art chosen for spells) Conceal: none (40% vs. ranged attacks) AB: 91, 86, 81, 76, 91 15-20/x3 using keen sickle Threading with spell gear: 82 rounds 7/8/9, 18 rounds 5/6, 53 rounds 1/2/3/4 -- about 15 minutes real time total Damage types: Slashing, Magic, Negative, or Positive Threading DC: 43 Threading L9 damage: 508hp (failed save) Threading L9 healing: 381hp Saves: 66F, 64R, 63W |
Race: Human Kolyarut (BUR subrace)
STR 14 -> 19
DEX 14 -> 19
CON 14 -> 18
WIS 14 -> 12
INT 14 -> 16
CHA 8 -> 6
Levels 1-10 Cleric, 11-20 WM, 21-30 Cleric, 31-40 WM.
Stats: All in DEX except 16 and 20 where you put points into Wisdom.
Feats from Kolyarut: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Feats:
1: Blooded, Bullheaded, Domain Death, Domain Healing
3: WF Sickle
6: Expertise
9: Whirlwind Attack
11: Weapon of Choice: Sickle
12: Weapon Finesse
15: Blind Fight
18: Great Fortitude
21: Great WIS 1
24: Great Wis 2
27: Great Wis 3
30: Great Wis 4
33: Great Wis 5, Armor Skin
36: Great Wis 6, EWF: Sickle
39: ESF: Heal, Epic Prowess
Level 40 unmodified stats:
STR 19
DEX 27
CON 18
WIS 20
INT 16
CHA 6
41 read Enchant Book
LL feats:
LSA Tumble
LSA Discipline
LSF Heal
LWF Sickle
LSF Enchant (for +14 GMW)
Epic Will
Legendary Fort
In LL's, put 5 points in DEX, then 5 in STR. If you prefer a little better AC/AB when starting you can choose 9 DEX and 1 STR then reincarnate with the higher STR after demi or double demi. With the 5/5 route you will end double demi with 48 DEX and 40 STR, which will max out your AC using base 3 light armor and make you much harder to KD.
Skills pre-LL:
Intimidate - 4 points at level 9 or so (required for WM)
Heal - Max at all levels (will end with 43)
Discipline - Max on all WM levels (will end at 43)
Concentration - Put about 20 points in this
Skills in LL:
Heal - Max
Tumble - Max through level 57 after taking LSA Tumble
Discipline - Max after taking LSA Discipline
Parry - Max
Craft Armor - Max
Craft Weapon - anything left over
Final skills at level 60:
- 4 Intimidate
- 63 Heal
- 63 Discipline
- 63 Craft Armor
- 63 Parry
- 60 Tumble
- 20 Concentration
- 34 Craft Weapon
AB pre-demi is 89 after buffs which isn't stellar but it hits most things.
The equipment I wore for most of my trip through Hells was:
- DB Sickle / Dis Sickle
- UR Ricorin Studs armor
- UR Pinwheel Shield (for poison and fear immune)
- UR Veil of Kings helm
- UR cleric belt or Tia cleric belt
- BUR Fiendish Fingers
- Tia cloak, Tia boots, Tia amulet
- Breach ring + appropriate UR ring for the level
The choices above are definitely non-optimal by today's standard other than the Tia items (which I put in gradually as I acquired them), but it shows you don't need the best of everything. Better armor choices include Swamp Devil Hide and Nature's Embanking Palisade.
What my demi character now wears is:
- Dis Sickle
- Swamp Devil Hide
- Helm of Zeal
- Gleaming Glint UR shield
- Gauntlets of Transposed Energy
- Tia belt
- Tia amulet
- Tia cloak
- Styxwalkers (Asmo boots)
- Quaternery Exotica (breach + 25% to all exotics)
- Band of Anubis or appropriate other ring
Be sure to take advantage of the 5 epic wardings on the asmo boots. Other gear choices are possible, just make sure you get poison and fear immunity in addition to the normal stuff.
Some considerations:
- Caster gear makes a huge difference in how often you have to rest. The threading damage and healing from low level spells is unattractive, so loading up on high level slots via Dachy or Tia gear really helps. Prior to getting Tia gear I'd be resting about three times per Hells map as I'd run out of spells. With four Tia items I typically rest only once at the end of the map along with everyone else. If the party is resting, go ahead and join them so you're threading high level spells though.
- Even with lots of caster gear, you'll still be turning threading on and off constantly to conserve spells. I turn it off ASAP at the end of each fight, and turn it on only right before spawning or right as the mobs arrive at the party. Another option is to use something like !dam4 to switch to low level spells, then !dam9 when the fighting starts.
- You have no conceal. Get Displacement from a bard or mage whenever possible. This makes a big difference in how often you're hit.
- You have +14 GMW, but if your threading uses up the slots, it isn't available for recast, and your 40 caster levels means it doesn't have real long life. Get GMW from a real caster if it's +14 or better. I've done a few runs as the only GMW source however, so it is handy.
- If the +14 GMW doesn't appeal to you, some other options for the feat include ESF Discipline to help you out in the very deep Hells, a Great STR feat to give a little more bonus vs. KD checks, or Blinding Speed. You could also switch entirely from Enchant to Abjuration (so +10 GMWs) and gain a high level Energy Immunity spell.
- In the Hells about 60-80% of your damage is from threading, the rest your sickle. In LL's I found a bit more from the sickle, depending on how much massing was going on.
- Your threading radius grows as you level, getting a size bump every 10th LT level. At level 60 as a pure threader you'll see a pretty big jump in size, and this is going to really help.
- Positioning is very important. You'd like to be in the center of the enemy group to hit as many things as possible. You also would like to hit as many of your party members with the healing as possible, especially the front lines. You'd also like to focus your sickle damage on whatever is most in need of going down quickly. This may mean some manual maneuvering around the fight using keyboard commands.
- Don't forget you have a decent AB and 20 WM levels. There's no way your sickle damage will keep up with the big guns, but you'll probably beat some of the other dexers. Don't just stand around -- hit stuff! This does extra damage as well as keep you from being flatfooted. Some threaders seem to want to just stand around, which means they give up damage and flat foot themselves. You're not a Pariah, so don't play like one.
- Generally in the Hells I use Slashing damage only. There are some cases where other types are better (e.g. Positive for the Baatorian) but in general Slashing is it. Do be careful in Min, as your threading will do a one/round split chance on tears. This is far better than a tank hitting them, but still dangerous. Never thread a para tear -- you and your party will regret it (see screenshot if you doubt). On regular tears use your spontaneous inflicts to do some damage to them. If you're feeling brave you can thread one or two non-para tears with physical or neg which will probably kill them before they split. Probably.
- I have chosen to use the Styxwalkers Asmo item, as it adds some more spell slots, gives amnesia immunity, and good exotic DR. The helm, cloak, gloves, or shield are other good options.
- I decided to use the STR artifact on mine. After double demi this gives her a 42 STR which is enough to resist all regular Pit Fiend KD's and a very good chance against paras and minibosses. Getting KD'd is quite annoying for a threader (and your party since the healing stops) and is probably the single biggest reason my character has died. DEX would add one AB which is rather pointless for this character. WIS sounds good in concept, but would really add almost nothing. CON is slightly useful. INT would be nice to stop confusion but it hasn't been nearly the issue for this character that KD's are -- it's not a bad choice though.
- Given the strength artifact is by far the hardest one in the game to get at the moment, you could choose to use a dex artifact and adjust the stat points taken in LLs. The insta-kill ability of the strength artifact is pretty useful.
The damage output is the most noticeable thing about playing this character -- you can close to double the total output of the best tanks on most Hells runs, and quadruple or more that of average tanks. However it's area damage rather than focused damage, and you're not going to be at the top of kills. Something a little less noticeable but I think a big help for parties is the healing. If you can stay in range of the tanks, the healing you give them helps keep people alive as well as in action rather than healing. It can also be a big plus for anyone KD'd and being beaten on near you.
Edit: with the latest Hells change (July 2009), damage has gone down a huge amount -- about half what it used to be. You're still quite useful and will be in the high end of tanks even if not up with the top end tanks, and it will be great on other runs. Elysium is a fantastic run for a threader.
You have a few things which are important to avoid when possible. Getting disarmed or your sickle slagged will stop your threading. Carry spare sickles. Fortunately this is very uncommon (it has only happened to me on the final Nessus map). Getting stunned, paralyzed, or stoned will stop your threading -- fortunately your high AC and saves will make this fairly rare, but watch out for it. Getting Amnesiad is a disaster as you're now just a lackluster dexer -- this happened very rarely to me but it's frustrating when it does. Lastly, getting KD'd stops threading and my toon got very very unhappy when things started beating on her at that point. A good bard with UUU can keep this from happening, and with a high STR you'll have a half-decent chance of avoiding it even without. This is a big reason I bumped up the str to 42 -- it means I can tank regular Malebranches and Pit Fiends without worries, and have a darn good chance against paragons. As a later post shows, the stats allow one to do very well against most checks you'll encounter.